[Stoves] FW: pot skirt efficiency estimates, scale-up

rongretlarson at comcast.net rongretlarson at comcast.net
Wed Sep 19 13:35:55 PDT 2012


"Joshua/Jed" 

I feel a need to throw in a few more concerns: 

a. You say you will seeing Belonio tomorrow. His work with Paul Olivier has led to a quite low cost rice-husk TLUD. The advantages of a TLUD for you could be in having: 
1) tight control over the liquid temperature (true for any TLUD employing control of primary air - but especially valid for the fan-powered type of TLUD. I think any rocket stove will require much higher skill level for the fire tender. 
2) low cost fuel (are rice husks available in your part of the Philippines?) 
3) your clientele being winery operators may have strong interest in biochar. This was what we heard at the recent Sonoma meeting. 


b. You started off wondering if your situation might be the same as Josh Kearns - who started off with and ended up with an interest only in a TLUD. 
Josh decided on the interior pipe approach apparently. There seemed agreement that you will be using a much higher amount of fuel with the external heating approach. 

c. In many ways, I like the idea of a pottery vessel (my wife is a potter). But maybe not for this application. Metal (stainless?) may prove a superior material with the high temperatures you will be hitting it with. Any ceramic will provide much poorer heat transfer to the liquid. Have you tried yet firing a ceramic"barrel" of this size? Do you know anyone doing this sort of high-temperature job with ceramics? It would be interesting to know if anyone has tried the interior piping with ceramics. 

Best of luck. 

Ron 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Guinto" <jed.building.bridges at gmail.com> 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:01:39 AM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] FW: pot skirt efficiency estimates, scale-up 

Dear Crispin and Kevin 

First of all, let me thank you for your prompt and very intelligent comments. It makes me feel more secured now that i learned somethings new and very important. 

I will do as Crispin says, lower the height of the secondary air entrance, do a fuel grate, break up the entry of the primary air to get a good central alignment of the flame and then the back brick. 

Tommorow morning is another big day. These comments came just in time before i install the jar on top of the combustion chamber. 

By the way, another big name in the stove design community is here with me in the project but on another mission. Engr Alexis Belonio will have a lot to suggest when he sees the set up tommorow. I look forward to it. 

To respond to some of Kevins question. 

they are in between the lines... 


2012/9/19 Kevin C < kchisholm at ca.inter.net > 



Dear Jed 

Crispin has made sopme very good suggestions for improving on the "stove aspects" of your still. There is nothing I can add to what Crispin suggests. 

I might be able to help with operation of the distilling aspects of your project. 

1: Is it a continuous process or a batch process? 




It is a batch process, one load is about 115 liters . 

<blockquote>
2: What is the volume of "feed wine" that your boiler will hold? 

</blockquote>


<blockquote>
3: What percentage of ethanol do you want in your final distillate product? 

</blockquote>


Hmmm right now, the latest test indicates 70 percent with the traditional methods We want to increase that to as much as 90 %. 


<blockquote>
4: Do you use a simple condenser, where you simply condense all the vapor that is boiled off, or do you use a reflux column? 

</blockquote>


We use a simple condenser. Actually, i have a clay condenser fabricated. But i neglected to have the inside walls glazed. So i will only use that until it is glazed. For the meantime we will use the metal condensers that the locals fabricate themselves. 


<blockquote>
5: What is the initial alcohol content of the "feed wine?" 

</blockquote>


That i wll check tommorow 


<blockquote>
6: How many litres per hour of "feed wine" do you wish to process? 

</blockquote>


Sixteen liters in one hour will already be satisfying. 


<blockquote>

I don't understand your separating technology. What is condensed or cooled in the "Radiator?" 

</blockquote>


The radiator was meant to cool off he cooling water that runs on top of the condenser so we may use them again in a continuing cycle. 



<blockquote>
What is the source and nature of the "waste water" that is being sent to the "Waste Water Treatment tanks?" 

</blockquote>


This would be the distillate, the spent liquid after the distillation. I would not want them disposed directly to the creeks. 


<blockquote>

You would probably benefit from Thermometers at various points in the still and condensers. You should also have valves in the water cooling pipes, to regulate the flow rate of water from your head tank. 

</blockquote>


Yes, i agree. I think i will do a monitoring chart for every point ... 


<blockquote>

Am I correct in assuming that your "Radiator Assembly" cools your condenser or reflux column water flow, to permit re-use? If so, you could use a radiator or two (depending on how much heat you have to dissipate) from scrapped automobiles for cooling the condenser water for re-use. 

</blockquote>


Good idea. For now im using a simple fine net like those of the mosquito nets. I do not know if it will not melt off 


<blockquote>

Your pottery boiler looks great! I presume you are using it, to minimize differences in operation from the technology presently being employed. 


</blockquote>


The present technology is actually the use of metal drums they get from the industries..... They could contains remains of chemicals, diesel, oil, shampoo or anything. they clean the drums very crudely. The drums lasts only for several months because of metal fatique. Then they wlll have to be replaced. 

The clay boiler is actually going back from the modern to the more native. 



<blockquote>
Best wishes, 

Kevin Chisholm 


Thank you both once again. More news to come 

</blockquote>


Jed 

<blockquote>
Quoting jed.building.bridges at gmail.com : 


<blockquote>

Dear All 

With all respects, i wish to join in the discussion with my own concern 
similar to that of Josh Kearns. 

Im at present building an improved wine distillery in favor of the small 
nipa wine producers in my hometown. The constructin is now in full scale and 
so im beginning to really get worried about the integrity of my design. 

I do not have enough engineering background on this and do not have much 
equipments. So i would really appreciate it if you could also guide me 
through with this project. 

I attached some photos and drawings of the project. 

It was organized by a Japanese JICA volunteer and will help more than 200 
wine producers not to mention their health and the immediate environment. 

Best regards 

JEd Guinto 



2012/9/16 Paul Anderson < psanders at ilstu.edu > 

Josh, 

>From experience, having the heat go through a single pipe/chimney in the 
center of the water tank is much better than having the heat go around the 
outside of the steel drum. And it is much less expansive. 





Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" 
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 
Website: www.drtlud.com 

On 9/14/2012 11:36 PM, Josh Kearns wrote: 

I'm thinking about building a 5-gal TLUD fired 55-gal water heater for 
outdoor showers. I'm wondering if anyone has a ballpark estimate for heat 
transfer efficiency w/ and w/o using a pot skirt attachment. The hot water 
tank will be a 55-gal steel drum, so I think the setup is pretty analogous 
to a cookstove setup, just bigger. 



20%? 



Any thoughts are helpful, rough estimates OK.....thanks! 





FYI, the char from the water heating setup will be used in arbor-loo style 
modular composting toilets. This infrastructure is being installed during a 
rambo design-and-build sesh for my wedding on a farm in rural Appalachia 
(USA), but will be used continually by future events at the site. Cool, 
huh?!?! 



Josh 





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</blockquote>






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</blockquote>


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