[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 40, Issue 6
Thomas Reed
tombreed2010 at gmail.com
Fri Dec 6 13:30:30 CST 2013
Thomas B Reed
280 Hardwick Rd
Barre, Ma 01005
508-353-7841
> On Dec 6, 2013, at 2:00 PM, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS (Art Donnelly)
> 2. Re: A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS (Bryden, Kenneth [M E])
> 3. Re: A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS (CHRISTA ROTH)
> 4. Re: NY Times article on what fuel poor need. (Ronal W. Larson)
> 5. Re: NY Times article on what fuel poor need. (Roger Samson)
> 6. Re: NY Times article on what fuel poor need. (Anand Karve)
> 7. Re: A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS (Cookswell Jikos)
> 8. Re: NY Times article on what fuel poor need. (Ronal W.
> Larson) (yury yud)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:30:32 -0600
> From: Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS
> Message-ID:
> <CALyHvqq1RUZ=ZuMyJ=yq0BaHs8PZhrxqSZvMoyKBf4MGTOvrtQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
> I want to respond to Teddy's query, on the 30th of Nov., about the
> possibility of a "fuels" panel discussion or session at the upcoming ETHOS
> conference. We all recognize what an important issue this is, not just in
> terms of sustainability, but also performance and acceptance. As a working
> with biochar producing TLUD-style stoves, this is one of our make-or-break
> issues.
> So, Teddy I hope you will attend this years conference, after an absence of
> two years, I am looking forward to it. You have my interest in seeing the
> topic of fuels, as a featured part of the conference. What could we do to
> make this happen?
> Art
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 19:46:37 +0000
> From: "Bryden, Kenneth [M E]" <kmbryden at iastate.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS
> Message-ID: <B651BD16-02AE-41BB-9A73-555913DF20E7 at iastate.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> I?m listening to the discussion and compiling a list of suggestions. I?ll send out the list in the next week. Once we have topics - someone will need to volunteer to lead and gather the speakers/activities in a particular area.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> What could we do to make this happen?
>> Art
> [snip]
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 20:56:03 +0100
> From: CHRISTA ROTH <stoves at foodandfuel.info>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS
> Message-ID: <78AB27C9-CBCE-4AF4-8CBC-F289BA31B44A at foodandfuel.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Paul Means and myself intend to contribute a session on fuels and fuel preparation, as a follow up on Pauls presentation this year at ETHOS and in Cambodia. It will also contain practical examples from Malawi on the experiences how people transitioned from being strained for firewood to self-sufficiency for cooking energy in the combination of slightly improved stoves and the growing of pigeon peas intercropped in their fields. a good example of an integrated food, feed and energy system. Abstract will follow soon-ish.
> I will also present the updated micro-gasification manual (but need to finish it first?)
> Christa
>
>> Am 05.12.2013 um 20:46 schrieb "Bryden, Kenneth [M E]" <kmbryden at iastate.edu>:
>>
>> I?m listening to the discussion and compiling a list of suggestions. I?ll send out the list in the next week. Once we have topics - someone will need to volunteer to lead and gather the speakers/activities in a particular area.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> What could we do to make this happen?
>>> Art
>> [snip]
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:10:24 -0700
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Roger Samson <rogerenroute at yahoo.ca>, Discussion of biomass
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
> Message-ID: <8A894BBF-09CB-404D-A5A3-D37453ED537E at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Roger:
>
> Very nice job on reporting the evolution of the No-Flay. I see some very clever design features there - and a very nice cost ($10). I look forward to hearing of your upcoming more detailed test results.
>
> Some nit picking questions:
>
> 1. You are recommending a 1.5 cm gap from outer unfired wall to pot. I think Dean Still would recommend maybe half that. Any specific reason for 1.5 cm?
>
> 2. How do you support the pot above the three fired brick stack? Spacing also 1.5 cm? Or more?
>
> 3. What are the range of pot diameters you can accommodate? Has any family bought 2 for different pot sizes for types of food?
>
> 4. I can understand the recommendation for outside cooking, but also see the no-flay as working indoors for some cultures. One objection I had once was taking up space. Any use of your no-flays indoors? The outdoor use any problem with rainfall on the unfired bricks?
>
> 5. I am unaware of any other stove with internal support using the fired bricks. Nice concept. I like there are three, not four inside. The 20 cm height for three could be varied a little for different size pots and flames? The fired bricks seem to cost 10 cents each, and the unfired at a little less than half that. Could the fired bricks be supplied in rounded arc shapes similarly? (Trying to move towards a TLUD version of same - needing a total enclosure.)
>
> 6. A TLUD all-clay, local construction version (to obtain char) seems doable - but would need drop down (removable) metal fuel containers. I hope some reader can report they tried it. Maybe later I will. Getting rid of metal is great. I think with wider fired bricks you might not need any outer layer, although that does provide some nice preheating.
>
> 7. Is it necessary to sell this at $5? I would think your fuel savings could easily justify the full $10 cost.
>
> 8. Your cost pie-chart showed a ?micro? transport cost. What is that?
>
> Again thanks for reporting on some very nice approaches. Best of luck on future sales.
>
> Ron
>
>
>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 11:07 AM, Roger Samson <rogerenroute at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The best way to identify the cooking needs of poor people is to ask them after spending considerable time with them in the field to understand their situation (ie to understand the cooking problem intimately and then brainstorm solutions together)
>>
>> This supposition that we have to cook indoors in much of the developing world is something that should be debated widely. In the western world we don't warm up our cars for extended periods in our house as we all agree this is poor for our health. Can we all recognize that it is a much better idea to run combustion appliances for cooking in an outdoor environment(especially in the tropics).
>>
>>
>> The poor affordability and replicability of "high tech" stoves and fuels is a serious development barrier. Cooking outdoors (especially in rural areas) with appropriate local and low cost improved stoves and fuels is the most sustainable approach to address the health impacts of cooking. We need to combine improved cookstoves with a cooking environment that does not have stagnant air (ie one that recycles particulates or doesn't allow for particle dispersion). Cooking outdoors in rural areas has no ambient air impacts on communities so let's just do it. We are promoting this concept in west africa with the REAP clay brick stove known locally as the Noflay or "no problem" stove in the region.
>>
>> The health impact is a function of the technology x cooking time x environment in which the cooking is performed.
>> We can express it in an equation form as H=T (technology) xT (time of exposure) x E(environment) in which the cooking is performed.
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Roger Samson
>> REAP-Canada
>> http://www.reap-canada.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:55:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
>>
>> Rogerio etal
>>
>> Brazil is going to be leading the way on biofuels of all types. In addition to ethanol (from sugar cane?), there are numerous plant species producing oily seeds that can be pressed. From time to time we have had seed oil proponents on this list. We have had several for ethanol stoves
>>
>> I had in mind also the use of all sorts of liquid fuels that can be produced from pyrolysis - with a biochar co-product, so we can accomplish some CDR (carbon dioxide removal).
>>
>> Liquid fuels can burn very cleanly and are nicely controllable.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreeing with Ron.
>>>
>>> Liquid biofuels, and specially ethanol can be an alternative cooking and lighting fuel, either produced at large scale or at the community level with micro-distilleries.
>>>
>>> Project Gaia have demonstrated to me an efficient ethanol cookstove and also an ethanol lamp, and I have seeing here ethanol power generators in operation.
>>>
>>> Here in Brazil ethanol produced at farm level can be around US$ 0,50 per liter
>>>
>>> Rog?rio
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/4 Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>>> Nari and list:
>>>
>>> 1. I write to disagree with your conclusion on fossil fuels. They are ?best? (in several senses, not including being cheaper) mainly because their externality costs are borne by all of society.
>>>
>>> 2. I was surprised at first to see this view attributed to the NY Times. This was the view of Bjorne Lomborg who claims not to be a climate skeptic - but sure writes like one.
>>>
>>> 3. I do agree that kerosene has many advantages to go with their disadvantages. A way to move to a majority of advantages is to call for liquid fuels rather than fossil fuels. These can have a biomass origin, and (especially in rural areas) can also be cheaper.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:23 PM, nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi stovers,
>>>>
>>>> A recent NYT article echoes what we have observed while working with rural poor in India - they need excellent and convenient fuel for cooking and lighting. Sometimes fossil fuels are the best. www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Here is the NYT article; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion
>>>>
>>>> Cheers.
>>>>
>>>> Anil
>>>>
>>>> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>>>> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
>>>> P.O.Box 44
>>>> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
>>>> Ph:91-2166-222396/220945/222842
>>>> mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan at gmail.com
>>>> nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nariphaltan.org/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>>
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>>>
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>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
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>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:32:57 -0800 (PST)
> From: Roger Samson <rogerenroute at yahoo.ca>
> To: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>, Discussion of
> biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
> Message-ID:
> <1386279177.84946.YahooMailNeo at web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> Hi Ron
> ?
> See replies below
> ?
> Roger: ?
> ?
> ? ?Very nice job on reporting the evolution of the No-Flay. ?I see some very clever design features there - and a very nice cost ($10). ?I look forward to hearing of your upcoming more detailed test results.
> ?
> ?Some nit picking questions:
> ?
> ? ?1. ?You are recommending a 1.5 cm gap from outer unfired wall to pot. ?I think Dean Still would recommend maybe half that. ?Any specific reason for 1.5 cm?
> ?
> We found 1.5 cm worked nicely with the typical 34 cm (14?) large pots (cooking for 14 in the household on average). The gap has to be sized to the combustion air flow you require. A bigger heat demand requires a bigger gap. Also from a practical standpoint a 1.5 cm was a gap the masons could work with, a smaller gap would cause installation issues.
> ?
> 2.?????? How do you support the pot above the three fired brick stack? ?Spacing also 1.5 cm? ?Or more?
> ?
> Yes we just cut the aluminum pot legs with a hacksaw to leave about a 1.5-2cm stub on the legs
> ?
> 3.?????? What are the range of pot diameters you can accommodate? ?Has any family bought 2 for different pot sizes for types of food?
> ?
> Our experience to date is the stove can accommodate pots from about 30 cm -60cm but we haven?t gone bigger yet. ?In Senegal and Gambia most users want a 5 brick layer high stove for rice and millet cooking and a 4 brick layer high sauce pan stove. At McGill University a student is working to develop a bigger prototype for parboiling rice.
> ?
> ?
> ? ? ?4. ?I can understand the recommendation for outside cooking, but also see the no-flay as working indoors for some cultures. ?One objection I had once was taking up space. ?Any use of your no-flays indoors? ? The outdoor use any problem with rainfall on the unfired bricks?
> ?
> We started installing indoors and it was the communities that decided to build the stove outdoors once they realized they could cook outdoors under windy conditions with the double wall design. They never could do that before safely or efficiently with a 3 stone fire. ?To protect from rain most just put up a slanted sheet of tin and two wooden supports against an existing kitchen wall. ?
> ?
> ? ? ? 5. ?I am unaware of any other stove with internal support using the fired bricks. ?Nice concept. ?I like there are three, not four inside. ?The 20 cm height for three could be varied a little for different size pots and flames? ?The fired bricks seem to cost 10 cents each, and the unfired at a little less than half that. ?Could the fired bricks be supplied in rounded arc shapes similarly? ?(Trying to move towards a TLUD version of same - needing a total enclosure.)
> ?
> We use 4 centre bricks on the bigger stoves in a diamond like pattern to support bigger pots. The 20 cm height is really a function of the brick thickness to save on materials. We could go higher, but it?s also the height they are used to cooking at so very user friendly. We went with smooth sided bricks because they are easier to pack and less breakage in transport.
> ?
> ? ? ? 6. ?A TLUD all-clay, local construction version (to obtain char) seems doable - but would need drop down (removable) metal fuel containers. ?I hope some reader can report they tried it. ?Maybe later I will. ?Getting rid of metal is great. ?I think with wider fired bricks you might not need any outer layer, although that does provide some nice preheating.
> ?
> Paul Anderson and I discussed this as a hybrid stove concept in Seattle, you use the TLUD insert and place it inside the fired bricks when you have the TLUD fuel and remove it and cook with wood when you don?t.
> ?
> ?
> ? ? ?7. ?Is it necessary to sell this at $5? ?I would think your fuel savings could easily justify the full $10 cost.
> ?
> Well it?s a new stove and this area is very poor in west africa. So if you can?t install stoves unless you discount it to launch it, you have to subsidize. Hopefully they will build it themselves locally and become wealthy enough to be able to afford to buy it without subsidy in the future.
> ?
> ? ? ?8. ?Your cost pie-chart showed a ?micro? transport cost. ?What is that?
> ?
> That?s brick redistribution costs in the community. So we bring bricks by truck or tractor wagon to a community but you have to donkey cart it to each individual household so that?s our ?micro? transport cost.
> ?
> Again thanks for reporting on some very nice approaches. ?Best of luck on future sales.
> ?
> ?
> THANKS!
> Ron
>
> From: Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> To: Roger Samson <rogerenroute at yahoo.ca>; Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
>
>
>
> Roger: ?
>
> ? ?Very nice job on reporting the evolution of the No-Flay. ?I see some very clever design features there - and a very nice cost ($10). ?I look forward to hearing of your upcoming more detailed test results.
>
> ?Some nit picking questions:
>
> ? ?1. ?You are recommending a 1.5 cm gap from outer unfired wall to pot. ?I think Dean Still would recommend maybe half that. ?Any specific reason for 1.5 cm?
>
> ? ? 2. ? How do you support the pot above the three fired brick stack? ?Spacing also 1.5 cm? ?Or more?
>
> ? ? 3. ?What are the range of pot diameters you can accommodate? ?Has any family bought 2 for different pot sizes for types of food?
>
> ? ? ?4. ?I can understand the recommendation for outside cooking, but also see the no-flay as working indoors for some cultures. ?One objection I had once was taking up space. ?Any use of your no-flays indoors? ? The outdoor use any problem with rainfall on the unfired bricks?
>
> ? ? ? 5. ?I am unaware of any other stove with internal support using the fired bricks. ?Nice concept. ?I like there are three, not four inside. ?The 20 cm height for three could be varied a little for different size pots and flames? ?The fired bricks seem to cost 10 cents each, and the unfired at a little less than half that. ?Could the fired bricks be supplied in rounded arc shapes similarly? ?(Trying to move towards a TLUD version of same - needing a total enclosure.)
>
> ? ? ? 6. ?A TLUD all-clay, local construction version (to obtain char) seems doable - but would need drop down (removable) metal fuel containers. ?I hope some reader can report they tried it. ?Maybe later I will. ?Getting rid of metal is great. ?I think with wider fired bricks you might not need any outer layer, although that does provide some nice preheating.
>
> ? ? ?7. ?Is it necessary to sell this at $5? ?I would think your fuel savings could easily justify the full $10 cost.
>
> ? ? ?8. ?Your cost pie-chart showed a ?micro? transport cost. ?What is that?
>
> Again thanks for reporting on some very nice approaches. ?Best of luck on future sales.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Dec 5, 2013, at 11:07 AM, Roger Samson <rogerenroute at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> ?
>> The best way to identify?the cooking needs of poor people is to ask them after spending considerable time with them?in the field to understand their situation (ie to?understand the cooking problem intimately and then brainstorm solutions together)
>> ?
>> This supposition that we have to cook indoors in much of the developing world is something that should be debated?widely. In the western world we don't warm up our cars?for extended periods in our house as we all agree this is poor for our health. Can we?all recognize that it is a much better idea to run?combustion appliances for cooking in an outdoor environment(especially in?the tropics).?
>> ?
>> ?
>> The poor affordability and replicability of "high tech" stoves and fuels?is a serious development barrier.?Cooking outdoors (especially in rural areas) with appropriate local and low cost improved stoves and fuels is the?most sustainable approach to?address the health impacts of cooking.?We need to combine improved cookstoves with a cooking environment that does not have stagnant air (ie one that recycles particulates or doesn't allow for particle dispersion).?Cooking outdoors in rural areas has no ambient air impacts on communities so let's just do it. We are promoting this concept in west africa with the REAP clay brick stove known locally as the Noflay or "no problem" stove in the region.
>> ?
>> The health impact is a function of the technology x cooking time x environment in which the cooking is performed.?
>> We can express it in an equation form as H=T (technology) xT (time of exposure) x E(environment)?in which the cooking is performed.??
>> ?
>> ?
>> All the best
>> ?
>> Roger Samson
>> REAP-Canada
>> http://www.reap-canada.com/
>> ?
>> ?
>>
>>
>> From: Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> To: Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:55:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rogerio etal
>>
>>
>> ? ?Brazil is going to be leading the way on biofuels of all types. ?In addition to ethanol (from sugar cane?), there are numerous plant species producing oily seeds that can be pressed. ? From time to time we have had seed oil proponents on this list. ?We have had several for ethanol stoves
>>
>>
>> ? ?I had in mind also the use of all sorts of liquid fuels that can be produced from pyrolysis - with a biochar co-product, so we can accomplish some CDR (carbon dioxide removal).
>>
>>
>> ? ?Liquid fuels can burn very cleanly and are nicely controllable.
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Agreeing with Ron.?
>>>
>>>
>>> Liquid biofuels, and specially ethanol can be an alternative cooking and lighting fuel, either produced at large scale or at the community level with micro-distilleries.
>>>
>>>
>>> Project Gaia have demonstrated to me an efficient ethanol cookstove and also an ethanol lamp, and I have seeing here ethanol power generators in operation.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here in Brazil ethanol produced at farm level can be around US$ 0,50 per liter
>>>
>>>
>>> Rog?rio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/4 Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>>>
>>> Nari and list:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? 1. ? I write to disagree with your conclusion on fossil fuels. ? They are ?best? (in several senses, not including being cheaper) mainly because their externality costs are borne by all of society.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? ?2. ?I was surprised at first to see this view attributed to the NY Times. ?This was the view of Bjorne Lomborg who claims not to be a climate skeptic - but sure writes like one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? ?3. ?I do agree that kerosene has many advantages to go with their disadvantages. ?A way to move to a majority of advantages is to call for liquid fuels rather than fossil fuels. ? ?These can have a biomass origin, and (especially in rural areas) can also be cheaper.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:23 PM, nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi stovers,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A recent NYT article echoes what we have observed while working with rural poor in India - they need excellent and convenient fuel for cooking and lighting. Sometimes fossil fuels are the best. www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the NYT article;?http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anil
>>>>> ?Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>>>>> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
>>>>> P.O.Box 44
>>>>> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
>>>>> Ph:91-2166-222396/220945/222842
>>>>> mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan at gmail.com
>>>>> ? ? ? ? ? ?nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nariphaltan.org/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:04:19 +0530
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need.
> Message-ID:
> <CACPy7SdMyijWbrG-xK3AGHXSThFufhg8FEjnYBKUFD7r3kQUsQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Because the soap and cosmetics manufacturers need specific fatty acids,
> separating fatty acids from non-edible oils and animal fats is a thriving
> industry in India, This process leaves glycerine behind. I do not know
> what glycerine is used for, but if it is available at a moderate price of
> about US Cents 50 per kg, one might consider it as one of the liquid fuels
> Crystalline sugar is also available in India at about the same price. It
> melts at a moderate temperature of about 100C. Has anybody tried it?
> Yours A.D.Karve
>
>>
>> Project Gaia have demonstrated to me an efficient ethanol cookstove and
>> also an ethanol lamp, and I have seeing here ethanol power generators in
>> operation.
>>
>> Here in Brazil ethanol produced at farm level can be around US$ 0,50 per
>> liter
>>
>> Rog?rio
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/4 Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>>
>> Nari and list:
>>>
>>> 1. I write to disagree with your conclusion on fossil fuels. They
>>> are ?best? (in several senses, not including being cheaper) mainly because
>>> their externality costs are borne by all of society.
>>>
>>> 2. I was surprised at first to see this view attributed to the NY
>>> Times. This was the view of Bjorne Lomborg who claims not to be a climate
>>> skeptic - but sure writes like one.
>>>
>>> 3. I do agree that kerosene has many advantages to go with their
>>> disadvantages. A way to move to a majority of advantages is to call for
>>> liquid fuels rather than fossil fuels. These can have a biomass origin,
>>> and (especially in rural areas) can also be cheaper.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:23 PM, nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi stovers,
>>>
>>> A recent NYT article echoes what we have observed while working with
>>> rural poor in India - they need excellent and convenient fuel for cooking
>>> and lighting. Sometimes fossil fuels are the best.
>>> www.nariphaltan.org/kerosene.pdf
>>>
>>> Here is the NYT article;
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?hp&rref=opinion
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> Anil
>>>
>>> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>>> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
>>> P.O.Box 44
>>> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
>>> Ph:91-2166-222396/220945/222842
>>> e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com
>>> nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org
>>>
>>> http://www.nariphaltan.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 09:22:56 +0300
> From: Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] A "fuels" panel discussion at ETHOS
> Message-ID:
> <CAA-40HK0RwzdO98ZRaEVNEdGSLzFaZtBG_WhO0+D+up4nfsDkg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Art - thank you for your email.
>
> Let me see how Christmas sales pan out and perhaps I will be able to join
> you guys at ETHOS - it sounds fantastic!
>
> To be a bit more clear on what I am working on please see the following
> links to Cookswell's blog -
>
> http://kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/2009/12/buy-energy-saving-jiko-and-plant-52.html
>
> http://kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-cookswell-branch-charcoal-method.html
>
> http://kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/2011/10/grow-and-make-your-own-charcoal-in-half.html
>
> and this recent case study -
> http://africanclimate.net/en/cases/cookswell-jikos
>
> We have very many customers in Kenya using this ''seed-to-ash'' system of
> sustainable domestic biomass energy primarily because I think it is so
> straight forward and does require very much behavior change from the user
> and at the end of the day, it can even make one a bit of money.
>
> We decided on acacia spp. tree seeds to be disseminated for free with each
> of our products because they grow extremely well in most parts of East
> Africa, they are already a prime choice for charcoal feedstock, they
> coppice readily and are nitrogen fixing. They also can produce poles,
> timber, tool handles etc.
> We also try to advise people who do not have land to grow them on to give
> them to their local clinic/school or plant them on the road reserves.
>
> Thanks again and happy cooking everyone!
>
> Teddy
>
>
>
> *Cookswell Jikos*
> www.cookswell.co.ke
> www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos
> www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com
> Mobile: +254 700 380 009
> Mobile: +254 700 905 913
> P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I want to respond to Teddy's query, on the 30th of Nov., about the
>> possibility of a "fuels" panel discussion or session at the upcoming ETHOS
>> conference. We all recognize what an important issue this is, not just in
>> terms of sustainability, but also performance and acceptance. As a working
>> with biochar producing TLUD-style stoves, this is one of our
>> make-or-break issues.
>> So, Teddy I hope you will attend this years conference, after an absence
>> of two years, I am looking forward to it. You have my interest in seeing
>> the topic of fuels, as a featured part of the conference. What could we do
>> to make this happen?
>> Art
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 11:43:41 +0400
> From: yury yud <yudyury at gmail.com>
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org, rongretlarson at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NY Times article on what fuel poor need. (Ronal
> W. Larson)
> Message-ID:
> <CAD4D88A37Hpafm4gmf62BB1fXaOG_K1_T6-vYGcuUXF5fNSpmQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Ron,
> I want to express my views on this debate .
> 1. Global warming as a result of human activity :
> Take statistics and calculate how much carbon can be thrown into the air ,
> if we burn all the coal , gas and oil ( actually part of the fuel used in
> chemical synthesis ) . It turned out 10 billion tons of carbon .
> Look how much carbon is in the form of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and
> oceans . Turned 100,000 billion tons. We could increase that number by
> 1/10000 maximum . People too ambitious a high opinion of themselves, if
> they think they can influence global processes of their daily activities.
> The high concentration of population and industry can lead to local issues
> in such regions . Reducing emissions is crucial there.
> 2 . One person dies of hunger every six seconds in the world. I think the
> use of food as fuel immoral today.
> Sincerely
> Yury (Russia)
> yudyury at gmail.com
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