[Stoves] Venting Re: Example of missed opportunities was Re: is this new?

[Anand Karve]

Dear Paul,
I had similar experience with our ARTI biogas plant as you had with
the TLUD stove. At least 6 companies approached me for getting the
manufacturing rights of our biogas plant, but they lost interest on
hearing that this technology was not patented. Two large companies in
India have copied our design and they are selling it as their biogas
plant, but owing to the high overheads, their biogas plants cost about
twice as much as the one assembled at home by a handyman.  Our
Institute must have sold about 10,000 copies of our video CD, which
shows, step by step, how to fabricate this biogas plant using two
plastic water tanks. I assume that at least half of the people who
purchased our CD have fabricated their own biogas plant. We keep
receiving E-mails and telephone calls telling us about the successful
commissioning and operation of their home made biogas plants. Our
Institute also conducts courses teaching people how to construct a
biogas plant. Many of our trainees are basically plumbers by trade.
They don't worry about the ownership of intellectual property rights,
because they just buy the hardware from a hardware shop and assemble
the components to make a system, be it a wash basin, a bath shower a
w.c., a solar water heater or a biogas plant.
Yours
A.D.Karve


On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> Dear Crispin, and I hope a few others will read this,
>
> First, I improperly said "solid-fuel" instead of "biomass-fuel", so you had
> a basis to launch into a discussion based on coal as a stove fuel.  With
> coal being a fossil fuel, I was quite happy to have left it out.  I will be
> more careful next time.
>
> Second, you have written a wonderful rebuttal to my statements calling for
> more research on methods that show promise.  TLUDs are clearly among those,
> but not the only ones.  And the research should also include any poorly made
> TLUDs so that they can be properly exposed as not being very good.  And in
> fact your switch-hitting (dual mode) Vesto should also be included as a
> potentially very positive contribution.  Did you really want to sabotage the
> call for support for R&D that could have included the Vesto?   Did you think
> you were being excluded?  Sorry, I thought you knew me better than that.
>
> Interestingly, your final sentence was:
>
> Product development funding should go where promise has been demonstrated.
>
> So, I guess we do agree, but the problem is defining "where promise has been
> demonstrated."
>
> Let's go back nearly 10 years when I visited you twice (maybe 3 times) at
> your home and business in Swaziland.  You operated the Vesto for me then.
> That is the only time I have seen it operate well.   (We had unsuccessful
> attempts at Stove Camp in 2004 or 2005 at Aprovecho.)  At that time you
> never even suggested that the Vesto would operate in a TLUD fashion.
>
> We see now that the Vesto has been modified and improved, and so have the
> TLUDs.  Great.   And who did that?   YOU did.   And __I__ did (along with
> others at many stages).  And we paid for that R&D ourselves.  And there are
> very valid R&D questions that were identified 10 and 8 and 5 and 3 years ago
> that still have not been resolved.   And some have been barely touched.
> Imagine what could have been done if there had been some modest support to
> bring together us and 5 to 10 key others with an agenda to resolve the
> questions.
>
> But there is also real difference in approaches, well represented by you and
> me.  I (and Reed and Wendelbo and English and Larson, and others)  are
> committed to the "open architecture" of TLUDs.   On the other side, you are
> a staunch believer in holding on to Intellectual Property rights.  We ALL
> recognize that IP is valid and legal and can be useful, but some of us think
> it gets in the way of progress for the cookstove solutions.  And so you
> never wanted to "partner" with me on stove development.   I would not accept
> seeking proprietary rights on anything that I helped develop.   That is
> fine.  I respect your position.  And in spite of what others are thinking as
> they read this, you and I are friends and will remain so.
>
> And you are certainly not alone as an IP-favoring Stover.  Just look at the
> stove companies:  BP, Philips, World Stove, Eco-cocina (fan-jet stove in El
> Salvador) all claim patents.   And Envirofit, Burn, and many others are
> highly protective and/or focusing their efforts onto highly specific stoves,
> yes, onto their own stoves.   Granted, that can be judged to be good
> business.  And the reasoning is to let the profitable businesses pay for the
> R&D work for stoves.   THAT is NOT very supportive for the innovative
> stovers.  Instead it keeps the IP people on their singular tracks.
>
> Let me tell you how many times I have been affirmatively approached for
> discussions about TLUD stoves by any of those entities that favor IP
> protection and business dominance.  Answer:  Zero, Nil, Nada,    (Sorry if I
> am flattering myself to think that I just might know a little about TLUD
> stoves.  Maybe enough to be of interest, I hope.)   But NEVER contacted,
> even when I have initiated contacts, the responses have been "not of
> interest at this time."
>
> Oh.  But now there is some interest in micro-gasifier stoves.  Big million
> dollar contract to Colorado State University for modeling of better stoves,
> and gasifiers are high high high on the list of technology.  I contacted
> CSU, congratulated them, offered assistance from the entire network of TLUD
> enthusiasts with whom I have strong contacts.  So far, not a glimmer of
> interest by CSU to talk to the people who have the most PRACTICAL experience
> with micro-gasifier stoves.  I wish them well.  And my offer to assist still
> is open.  And I hope they are not so ticked off by this paragraph that they
> reject the offer of assistance.
>
> Oh.  Crispin, did CSU contact you for discussions?  They should.  I hope
> they talk to at least one of us.  And many others.
>
> There is a similarity in our situations.  Both the Vesto stove and the
> "Champion" TLUD stove were instrumental in getting BEIA grants from the
> World Bank.   THANK HEAVENS FOR THAT!!   Finally there was some support for
> projects with our stoves.  I have not heard much about the project with
> Vestos.  And the project with TLUDs has not yet released its final report.
>
> The BEIA-CREEC project in Uganda finally put natural draft TLUDs into a
> project.  If it had not been for that project, the Mwoto TLUD would not
> exist.   I was the lead technical person on the Mwoto TLUD.  That was my
> second paid consultancy (First was to GERES in Cambodia for 2 weeks many
> years ago).   And I have put all of that (minor) money into my little
> business (Awamu) in Uganda that started 3 months ago and is based on some
> quite different TLUD developments.  (See "Quad" stove at www.drtlud.com
> and/or hear my presentation at ETHOS for some details.)
>
> So NOW I get to support some Ugandan workers without the consultancy income.
> Sure, I am applying for grants.   But those grants do not allow for much
> funds for R&D.   So I am all about business these days.  Success or fold.
> To limp along for very long with self-funding from my pension income is not
> an option.  Deep borrowing/signing on loans is not an option.   Grants or
> investors/partners are needed in 2013.  Make it or break it.  And the R&D
> will just need to happen in the course of activities.   Volunteers are
> GREATLY appreciated.  There is much that can be done.
>
> However, I did write in my previous message that some funding for R&D could
> be appropriate for TLUD technology that is open architecture for all.  We
> know that the GACC will not be doing that; GACC has a clearly defined
> business-stimulation approach.  But there are other sources.  So, Crispin, I
> hope that your message has not extinguished some small interest in helping
> with the R&D efforts.
>
> A positive conclusion (for anyone who has read this far):  It is my
> intention to stimulate and conduct one or several FOCUSED "Gasifier Stove
> Camps" of 5-day duration during 2013.  One could be in Kampala, Uganda.
> Another could be in Tennessee at Albert Bates' The Farm.  And another might
> be at Aprovecho in Oregon.   And I have hopes for others in different
> countries.
>
> But each one depends on finding some reasonable sponsor.  Wow, would that be
> great.  And with some support, we could try real hard to get some of the
> right people together at the closest different venues.   I would love to
> have you, Crispin, at a focused stove camp with an agenda of R&D topics (not
> just "everyone do your own thing" at camp).
>
> So, in a few hours I start my trip to ETHOS in Seattle.  Looking forward to
> seeing many of you there.  Sorry if I offended anyone or stepped on some
> toes.  No hard feelings, I hope.  If you read this far, you know that I am
> serious about making some progress, and I would be delighted if anyone would
> like to be working together with me (and with many others who share the
> dreams.)
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com