[Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification
Tom Miles
tmiles at trmiles.com
Sat Jul 6 14:58:25 CDT 2013
Customer pull is called a "market" and the people closest to the market are
the producers working in the field. The many producers on this list get a
clear understanding of the qualities in demand as they work in the many
different markets for stoves. We see this reflected in the needs that they
articulate on the list.
People interested in stoves policy follow the money. The money right now is
in the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves. GACC has forums for policy
discussions. While we occasionally have policy discussions the focus has
been primarily on technology. Policy topics generally don't last long enough
here to justify a separate list. Sometimes technical discussions here get
too intense for people who are primarily interested in policy and they
leave.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Paul Anderson
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 12:27 PM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
NOT Re: ocean acidification
Kevin and all,
>
> Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or
> "Customer Pull"?
Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so
few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is
likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".
I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at
least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience and
are not driven by the monetary reward.
Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances
that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any attempts
to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer
Push or Push from Outside of their societies.
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
> Dear Paul
>
> This is the STOVES list.
>
> Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
>
> I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."
>
> The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the
> street does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go
> across the street.
>
> In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove
> Customers with what they want.
>
> Just what do "Stove Customers" want?
>
> There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE
> perfect stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are
> stoves that perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.
>
> Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:
> * Initial cost
> * Portability
> * Appearance
> * Cooking capability
> * Space heating capability
> * Fuel efficiency
> * Durability
> * Visual access to flame
> * Pride of ownership
> * Cleanliness
> * Safety
> * Smoke free living space
> * Particulate free living space
> * Etc.
>
> There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer. There
> are MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove
> Customers.
>
> Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some
> motivations or "drivers" include:
> * To make money
> * To feel good
> * To do good
> * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology
> * To create an economic base for community development
> * To address a health concern
> * To address an Environmental Concern
> * To further another Agenda
> * Etc.
>
> To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer
> overlap, their mutual interests will be served.
>
> Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the
> interests and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed,
> and perhaps the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of
> the Stove Customers?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM
> Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
> NOT Re: ocean acidification
>
>
> Thank you Richard and Andrew,
>
> I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the
> Subject line. And therefore List readers who are fed up with the
> oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments. By
> the way, I did NOT read those messages. But I do read whatever Andrew
> and Richard contribute to the Listserv.
>
> Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. This relates to
> "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the
> poor will benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years or
> decades or lifetimes later.
>
> I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile
> phone development. A great example of trickle down technology coming
> rather quickly. But it reached the poor societies because business
> found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to also
> communicate. And microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are
> unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.
>
> Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the more
> affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of
> the pyramid (BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass
> fuel stoves into typical American and European households. But that
> approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World Bank
> ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs of
> the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to trickle down
> from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster) than
> trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.
>
> If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to this
> topic. (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually
> talking about. After all, the Subject line has at least two
> purposes: One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform
> the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)
>
> Paul with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300 pounds
> of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show at
> Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid
> October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. I hope
> to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in
> Illinois.
>
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:
>> Hi Andrew.
>>
>> Climate "discussions" aside, I wanted to elaborate on the
>> implications of your observation about where" designing" is easier:
>> I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for someone"
>> ( especially those less equipped to express their opinions and
>> experiences, needs and resources).... than to do it with them in
>> their context.
>>
>> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that
>> few really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining
>> whether or
>> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really
>> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply
>> designing a technical object and selling it here..
>>
>> Richard Stanley
>> NW part of the Americas
>> ==================
>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier
>> <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World
>>> countries. It is
>>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own
>>> kitchens.
>> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other
>> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,
>> important as they might be.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
>
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
.org
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
More information about the Stoves
mailing list