[Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification
rongretlarson at comcast.net
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Sun Jul 7 04:36:53 CDT 2013
Kevin, Paul, Steve, AD, List etal
1. I concur with Steve Taylor re congratulating AD (in message just received in this thread) for wisdom on developing country desires to emulate developed countries on consumer products. I believe we can go further and say this applies to incomes.
2. Mainly I write to note that Kevin (appropriately) places making money first on the producer side of the seller-buyer lists. But it appears nowhere on Kevin's list for the buyer side - even though about half of the messages on this list relate to TLUDs, with all TLUD purveyors well aware that charcoal can be sold by TLUD stove users. Both of Kevin's lists are below
3. Kevin mention's Cecil Cook doing interviews on consumer stove preferences. Anyone know if making money while cooking was a stove-user question that Cecil asked?
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2013 2:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification
Dear Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is
NOT Re: ocean acidification
Kevin and all,
>
> Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or
> "Customer Pull"?
Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so
few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is
likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".
# An astute Producer will find out what the Customer REALLY wants, and will
configure his Product Offering to meet the wants to the greatest extent
possible. Stove design involves compromises, and the trick is to get as many
of the wanted features as is possible, without building in "unwanted
features", such as "too costly", "too flimsy", "unacceptably ugly", too
unsafe", etc.
I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at
least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience and
are not driven by the monetary reward.
# "Prioducer Push" can be both "good" and "bad". It is "good" if the
producer aagressively and effectively promotes a product that accurately
addresses the Customer Wants. It is "bad" when the Producer incorporates
features that are now wanted by the Customer.
Example: When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances
that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any attempts
to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer
Push or Push from Outside of their societies.
# This is where work of the calibre being done by Cecil is so important. He
sets out to identify the features of a stove that are REALLY important to
the customer. Then, a Stove Producer can configure a Stove Product that best
meets the "Customer Wants". This is where the Stove producer can shine, with
new technology, better materials, better design, etc.
# The 'Policy People" at "Head Office" may want to Customer to buy a stove
that reduces "Ocean Acidification", or "Improves climate Conditions", or
"Produces Char", but if the Customer does not want these features, the stove
will not sell. Clearly, with so many potential Customers out there, some
will want these features, and will be willing to pay for them. While most
people buy bicycles, there is still a market for unicycles, but it is a
small percentage of the bicycle market. This is where "Producer Push" can go
wrong.
Best wishes,
Kevin
Paul
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
> Dear Paul
>
> This is the STOVES list.
>
> Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
>
> I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."
>
> The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the street
> does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across the
> street.
>
> In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove Customers
> with what they want.
>
> Just what do "Stove Customers" want?
>
> There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE perfect
> stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves that
> perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.
>
> Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:
> * Initial cost
> * Portability
> * Appearance
> * Cooking capability
> * Space heating capability
> * Fuel efficiency
> * Durability
> * Visual access to flame
> * Pride of ownership
> * Cleanliness
> * Safety
> * Smoke free living space
> * Particulate free living space
> * Etc.
>
> There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer. There are
> MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove
> Customers.
>
> Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some
> motivations or "drivers" include:
> * To make money
> * To feel good
> * To do good
> * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology
> * To create an economic base for community development
> * To address a health concern
> * To address an Environmental Concern
> * To further another Agenda
> * Etc.
>
> To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer overlap,
> their mutual interests will be served.
>
> Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the interests
> and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and perhaps
> the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove
> Customers?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM
> Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT
> Re: ocean acidification
>
>
> Thank you Richard and Andrew,
>
> I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the
> Subject line. And therefore List readers who are fed up with the
> oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments. By
> the way, I did NOT read those messages. But I do read whatever Andrew
> and Richard contribute to the Listserv.
>
> Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor. This relates to
> "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the
> poor will benefit..... EVENTUALLY benefit. Sure. a few years or
> decades or lifetimes later.
>
> I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile
> phone development. A great example of trickle down technology coming
> rather quickly. But it reached the poor societies because business
> found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to also
> communicate. And microchips etc are really inexpensive. We are
> unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.
>
> Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the more
> affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of
> the pyramid (BOP). That makes more sense than trying to get biomass
> fuel stoves into typical American and European households. But that
> approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World Bank
> ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs of
> the true base of the BOP. But at least the distance to trickle down
> from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster) than
> trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.
>
> If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to this
> topic. (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually
> talking about. After all, the Subject line has at least two
> purposes: One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform
> the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)
>
> Paul with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300 pounds
> of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show at
> Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid
> October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively. I hope
> to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in
> Illinois.
>
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
> On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:
>> Hi Andrew.
>>
>> Climate "discussions" aside, I wanted to elaborate on the implications
>> of your observation about where" designing" is easier:
>> I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for someone" (
>> especially those less equipped to express their opinions and experiences,
>> needs and resources)…... than to do it with them in their context…
>>
>> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that few
>> really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether or
>> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really
>> designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply designing a
>> technical object and selling it here….
>>
>> Richard Stanley
>> NW part of the Americas
>> ==================
>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier
>> <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World countries. It
>>> is
>>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own
>>> kitchens.
>> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other
>> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,
>> important as they might be.
>>
>> AJH
>>
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>
>
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