[Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor:Targeting everyone involved including ourselves

Richard Stanley rstanley at legacyfound.org
Sun Jul 7 12:45:34 CDT 2013


Paul et al., 

As concerns reaching the "target population" 
 They may well not have the advantage of seeing what solutions exist outside their own experience, just as you or I do not see what changes are possible outside our own realm (which, as gringo westerners, is about 5% of the total global population's experience). 

We are all making huge leaps in assumptions about what they really want and need--and how they might adapt the technology (as in re configure it)  to their own situation. We have few insights about what happens when this occurs and fewer still about how work through the changes with the end user to assure it is as efficient as possible--within their own reality. 

With so few of the 90% of the rest of us connected to this blitz of verbal technical information online we proudly hail as  the stoves  new groups, the vast majority of ou fello citisens of the planet remain  pretty far outside what we can see and understand.  Many who work and live within  this reality, who are active on this list, have implied much the same. We --most of us--have dedicated ourselves to developing   fine products  but extending the final form of these products into the mindset and use and design, or at minimum,  adaptive decision-making control of the end-user community is where we seem to be falling very much short –and that population is growing far faster thatn any stove or briquette extension effort…

When we see the idea being taken up in a culturally intervenous way--- really embedded/ really owned by  entrepreneurs and their own local communities---, thats when you are doing real development and thats when it will grow with the "target community" and we become if we are humble enough, a learner and networker in the process. 

Few can deny the benefit of cellpones but taken in light of the cellphone tower blight (the new afforesation of Africa) and the revenue flows to the corporate powers of the developed nations south or north, and the real quality of infromation exchanged vis a viz., development impact, one wonders who benefits the most… 

We have yet to learn how to  share ideas and making sure that everyone benefits in a self sustaining way. The western capitalist model falls far short of this end in its rationalised greed, as does the socialist model in its underestimation of the  about  human  need for individual initiative and responsibilities; 

Its not about another product, mass produced from China or anywhere else to reach a "target population": Its about many adapted versions of the product being produced in country according to local needs under local management in  local free markets. Share the design globally but let it be adapted, improved and owned  and produced and sold locally.

Its common sense: Our worst enemy is someone next to  our affluence with an empty stomach…

So much for sunday sermons…

Richard
Ashland Oregon
NWObamaland 

On Jul 6, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:

Kevin and all,

> 
> Should it [Stoves List discussion] be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
Considering that "customers" (local people in poverty, not NGOs) are so few on this Listserv, the very worthy attention to "Customer Pull" is likely to be viewed through the eyes of the "Producers".

I think that Producer Push is not as bad as it is thought to be, at least not when by Producers who have substantial overseas experience and are not driven by the monetary reward.

Example:  When the target Customers are quite unaware of some advances that could be beneficial to them, there is zero "pull". And any attempts to inform them of such advances would certainly be a form of Producer Push or Push from Outside of their societies.

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, Kevin wrote:
> Dear Paul
> 
> This is the STOVES list.
> 
> Should it be driven by "Producer Push" or "Customer Pull"?
> 
> I would suggest the Stoves List should be driven by "Customer Pull."
> 
> The Boy Scout who helps the proverbial "Little Old Lady" across the street does a good deed only when the Little Old Lady" wanted to go across the street.
> 
> In my opinion, the Stoves List should focus on providing Stove Customers with what they want.
> 
> Just what do "Stove Customers" want?
> 
> There are many facets to "Stoves". There is no such thing as "THE perfect stove", but there are as many "perfect stoves" as there are stoves that perfectly meet the wants and needs of the Stove Customer.
> 
> Some factors that may be of importance to Stove Customers are:
> * Initial cost
> * Portability
> * Appearance
> * Cooking capability
> * Space heating capability
> * Fuel efficiency
> * Durability
> * Visual access to flame
> * Pride of ownership
> * Cleanliness
> * Safety
> * Smoke free living space
> * Particulate free living space
> * Etc.
> 
> There are MANY more factors of importance to the Stove Customer. There are MANY, MANY combinations of factors that are of importance to Stove Customers.
> 
> Stove Producers produce stoves for many different motivations. Some motivations or "drivers" include:
> * To make money
> * To feel good
> * To do good
> * To create a market for a particular fuel or technology
> * To create an economic base for community development
> * To address a health concern
> * To address an Environmental Concern
> * To further another Agenda
> * Etc.
> 
> To the extent that the interests of the Customer and the Producer overlap, their mutual interests will be served.
> 
> Perhaps there should also be a "Stoves Policy List", where the interests and agendas of Stove Promoters and Producers were discussed, and perhaps the "Stoves List" should focus more on the interests of the Stove Customers?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 1:54 AM
> Subject: [Stoves] Designing for the affluent AND the poor.... this is NOT Re: ocean acidification
> 
> 
> Thank you Richard and Andrew,
> 
> I agree with your comments below EXCEPT that you did not change the
> Subject line.   And therefore List readers who are fed up with the
> oceanic acidity discussion are unlikely to have read your comments.  By
> the way, I did NOT read those messages.   But I do read whatever Andrew
> and Richard contribute to the Listserv.
> 
> Now, about designs for the affluent AND the poor.   This relates to
> "trickle down technology" that believes that by helping the rich, the
> poor will benefit.....  EVENTUALLY benefit.   Sure.   a few years or
> decades or lifetimes later.
> 
> I am glad that affluent societies financially supported cell/mobile
> phone development.  A great example of trickle down technology coming
> rather quickly.   But it reached the poor societies because business
> found that it could make money off of the needs of poor people to also
> communicate.   And microchips etc are really inexpensive.   We are
> unlikely to see similar benefits relating to cookstoves.
> 
> Even as it is today, MUCH of stove work/efforts are targeted to the more
> affluent of the poor, those who are in the upper parts of the BASE of
> the pyramid (BOP).   That makes more sense than trying to get biomass
> fuel stoves into typical American and European households.   But that
> approach (well established and supported by the GACC and the World Bank
> ACESS programs) still leaves a massive lack of attention to the needs of
> the true base of the BOP.   But at least the distance to trickle down
> from the upper BOP to the lower BOP is less (and should be faster) than
> trickle down from the Top of the Pyramid to be base of the BOP.
> 
> If you decide to reply to this Thread of messages, please stick to this
> topic.   (Or change the Subject line to reflect what you are actually
> talking about.   After all, the Subject line has at least two
> purposes:   One is to continue the Thread, and the other is to inform
> the reader what is the actual subject being discussed.)
> 
> Paul      with 4 more days in Uganda, then I bring home over 300 pounds
> of stove progress (available baggage allowance for 3 people) to show at
> Stove Camps and biochar meetings in late July, early Sept and mid
> October in Oregon, Tennessee, and Massachusetts, respectively.   I hope
> to see many of you as I cross the USA by car from my home base in Illinois.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> 
> On 7/5/2013 7:01 PM, Richard Stanley wrote:
>> Hi Andrew.
>> 
>> Climate "discussions" aside,   I wanted to elaborate on the implications of your observation about where" designing" is easier:
>>  I agree with you that it is easier to design anything "for someone" ( especially those less equipped to express their opinions and experiences, needs and resources)…... than to do it with them in their context…
>> 
>> My own experience tells me that the latter is the sticky part that few really want to get into and it's a huge part of determining whether or
>> not ones best intentions stick or not. That sticky part makes really designing from within a good bit more challenging that simply designing a technical object and selling it here….
>> 
>> Richard Stanley
>> NW part of the Americas
>> ==================
>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 12:14 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> [Default] On Thu, 4 Jul 2013 05:41:33 +0700,Paul Olivier
>> <paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It is easy to design stoves for poor people in Third World countries. It is
>>> a much bigger challenge to design them for use each day in our own kitchens.
>> Stove design and use is on topic for [stoves] but there are other
>> forums on which it is better to discuss world changing effects,
>> important as they might be.
>> 
>> AJH
>> 
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> 
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