[Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued

Sun Jun 16 12:11:21 CDT 2013

Thanks Paul. That sounds like a good place to start. 

Tom

From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu] 
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:57 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Tom Miles Easystreet; Jon Anderson; Hugh McLaughlin; Bob Fairchild
Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued

Tom,

The discussion was about coconut SHELLS.   And I think that a 20 L "bucket"
size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the "5G Toucan
Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin.    (5G is 5 gallons is 20 L).   And I ask
Hugh to please point us to the best description / photos.    This is a
single-walled fuel canister.

Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the Peko
Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters.   In a warm climate
(away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with single-wall units
that should work fine.   Have plenty of chimney to get good natural draft.
There is no attempt to use the heat in these trial runs.

When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider going
larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is sufficient supply
of coconut shells.

I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes charcoal
from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char to Europe
(because the shell-char is considered to be of such quality).   but I do
not have that contact any longer.

About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs.    All of my
attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.

Paul      (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)

Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:

Paul

What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
dimensions and a fuel size?

Tom

T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc. 

tmiles at trmiles.com

Sent from mobile. 

On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:

Dear Michael and Rebecca,

The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the 

the use of primative 

pit kilns and their pollution.

In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat.   A simple TLUD could
also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.

There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see that
the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.   

THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the TChar
designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.

ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using some of
that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:

Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.

We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as alternative
fuels

In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
cocnut products as fuel

In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She had
commented on the use of primative

pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
hopefully to reduce some polluion

Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for now
she is going to be expanding her

rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on Rebacca's
travails

I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its heat
and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.

.  

Michael 

Marshall Islands

--- Original Message ----- 

From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>  

To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>  

Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  

Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM

Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves

Rebecca,
Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a gasifier
unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to ignite and
creating the pyrolytic front.

I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite the
chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter. 

REMEMBER: 
Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the fueling
Chamber!
This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
charcoal or biochar production.

Good Luck.

Thanks

Otto

  _____  

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
From: psanders at ilstu.edu
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves

Rebecca,

To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is highly
appropriate.   The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to get
the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front
that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.

How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:

Michael,

I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the coconut so
well!!   So I presume you know very well the native “tuba” drink from the
flower shoot?  Do take a look at my photo album below :

<https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/588951149628016
0113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444>
https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444

- you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;  your preferred
frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells (inside sacks
and plastic bags).  The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the
bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans.  Take a close look at photo #37 -the
small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses “oling” or
coconut shell charcoal;  to the left you will find the big traditional
kalans which can use firewood,  “palwa” or “bucong”.  The “bucong” is
the fuel of the poorest and the “bingka” or rice cake bakers;  the
“palwa” is bought by the not so poor;  firewood by the middleclass;  and
the “oling “ is bought by the many food vendors (like “tocinos” -
similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling water
for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and
meats (sinugba).

Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground -a smoky
process with a lot of energy going to waste.  Do you know a better way??

Rebecca 

From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>  

Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>  

Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves

Dear Rebecca 

As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.

I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot and
fronds and shell 

Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces. After the
nuts are husked 

women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the yards. It
is exhausting back breaking work

Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature make it
very good for cooking rice.

BUT THE SMOKE!!!!

I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
produce better copra with out bugs and mold

with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product. 

In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of course
this mean no more shell left over.   

Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be considered
a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find slicing off
the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into
segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces feed
into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket stove fuel.

Michael

Marshall Islands

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>  

To: ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>  

Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>  ; Jon Anderson
<mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  

Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM

Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life

Hello Michael,

Thank you for your suggestions and question.  My comments are as follows:

1.  I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from the foot of
Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental.   The ash is free and my
partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete
City.  If this does not work, I’ll follow up on the TLUD route.

2.  Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their work
with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor Leste.  The
insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong, heavy
duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and to
support big cooking pots.  I still think that tiny insulating “clay
marbles” between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
chamber is the most practical way to pursue.  I am hopeful Rolf and
ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or pebbles
cheaply.

3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk - it is a by-product of COPRA
(mature coconut meat) production.  Every 3 months, the coconuts are
harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
copra.   The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or
storage buildings to make “bucong” - the fuel we use to fire the eco-
kalans to  900 degrees Celsius.  To use the “bucong” or coconut husk with
shell for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber
opening  as wide and as high (5.5”x5.5”) as that of the eco-kalan.

Rebecca Vermeer

Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines

British Columbia, Canada

From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>  

Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>  

Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life

Rebecca 

Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low cristobalite
"tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation. 

Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in
multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break

things up. 

How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove? 

Michael N Trevor

Marshall Islands

From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>  

To: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>  

Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
org 

Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM

Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life

Paul,

I currently use wood ash as  insulating material between the kalan and
combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut tree).  The eco-
kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves in Negros
Oriental, Philippines.   A shortage in supply of ash is one fact 

or which affects  sales of eco-kalan.    I  have considered making an
insulating material  using a  50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in
the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after firing.
I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900
degrees Celsius.  Will there be significant formation of cristobalite under
these conditions?  Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of the
bricks be a health hazard?  Thanks,

Rebecca Vermeer

From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>  

Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM

To: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>  

Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
org ; larry winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>  

Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life

Rebecca,
If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of cristobalite
formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized, provided channeling
does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the particulate matter
in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD  we have a lot
less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice hull
pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other reasons.
Thanks.
Paul Olivier

On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net> wrote:

Hello Paul,

Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is over 90%.
At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.  Given your comment below
regarding cristobalite “which is a nasty carcinogen” and severely
hazardous to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use of
rice hull as a household fuel for cookstoves? 

Rebecca Vermeer

CRISTOBALITE LINK:

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf

From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>  

Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM

To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>  

Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life

Paal,

One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes support a flame
throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the process or if char
is being burned as the process comes to a close, then one can see burner
holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is being discharged
from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed,
this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion takes place far below
the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor can easily turn red hot
and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot the presence of CO2 if
the top of the reactor stays open and does not have a lid with burner holes.

If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in channeling, it can
happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor, this
problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of CO2
can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to the
pan is not even.

Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost when biochar
is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and biochar
takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of biochar takes
place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice hull ash
and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it comes to
growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite, which
is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
handling this stuff.

Thanks.

Paul

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:

Ron

By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that indicate a
temperature of 700 to 800 ˚C and when there is no smoke, complete
combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?

Regards Paal W

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