[Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?

Tue Jun 18 13:41:49 CDT 2013

Dear Kevin,

One thing I have learned from testing Biochar is they are so different in
what they do and how plants respond to their soil addition. 
1) Once you add plants into the mix it opens up a lot more variables.
2) I think the size of the Biochar is important. A dust will coat close to
roots and seeds where particles are more part of the soil structure. 
3) Testing the properties of Biochar to take up nutrients differs in the
nutrient and the char being tested. Difficult to pinpoint a cause. To date
we test to see what this Biochar will do when mixed with this nutrient
package. And report that. 
4) I think the feedstock is very important because vegetative material
(grasses, leaves etc.) will already have more nutrients than wood chips. 

Frank

Thanks 

Frank Shields

BioChar Division
Control Laboratories, Inc. 
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CE  95076

(831) 724-5422 tel
(81) 724-3188 fax
frank at biocharlab.com
www.controllabs.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Kevin C
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:30 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Anand Karve
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Low temperature vs high temperature charcoal?

Dear Tom and AD

Very interesting and potentially extremely important!!

This could potentially explain the apparent differences between  
biochar tests run with different biochars.
1: I recall a report stating that "... activated charcoal is not as  
good as charcoal that had not been activated, in agricultural  
applications..."
2: I recall another report that stated basically "... high temperature  
char was not as good as "medium" temperature char.
3: Intuitively, I would expect that "low temperature char" has higher  
residual tar content, which "coats" absorption sites.

The very generalized conclusions I draw from the above are:
1: "Activated Charcoal", by definition, is more "active", and has a  
stronger tendency to hold on to available soil nutrients. "The best  
use" for "activated char" would be for "Soil remediation" where it is  
desired to capture and sequester undesirable "soil contaminants", such  
as toxic organic compounds, or undesirable heavy metal ions.

2: "High Temperature Charcoal" has properties that are similar to, but  
not as intense as, "Activated Charcoal".

3: "Medium Temperature Charcoal" has better properties for biochar  
intended for Agricultural Applications, in terms of its ability to  
"entrap soil nutrients, but to release them easily for use by soil  
organisms and plants.

Now, here is a conflict: If Terra Preta was made from "purpose made  
charcoal", such as would be produced in a "pit kiln", it would be "low  
temperature char", which conceptually should not be as good a  
"nutrient retainer" as would be "Medium temperature char". The  
question now is:
"Was Terra Preta made from "medium temperature char", such as would be  
made from a "slash and char" process, or was it made from a "low  
temperature char" such as would be made from a "charcoal pit process"?

This then leads to more questions:
1: Are the tar components in "low temperature char" actually  
beneficial to the soil and the plant growing process?
2: Are "Low Temperature" and "Medium Temperature" chars both  
beneficial, but do they have different operating mechanisms?

Any insights into the correctness or incorrectness of the above  
ponderings will be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,

Kevin

Quoting Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>:

> Dear Tom,
> we used to use the oven and retort process for making charcoal from
> sugarcane leaves. A scientist from the National Chemical Laboratory in
Pune
> studied our charcoal at that time and told us that it could not be
> considered to be activated charcoal. Nowadays we use a TLUD kiln of 200
> litre capacity for making charcoal from the same raw material. Recently I
> gave a sample of this charcoal to the same scientist and he reported that
> it had the absorptive properies of activated charcoal.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> Dear Biochar developers;
>>
>> Conventional charcoal making (with an external heat source around a
>> vessel) typically reach temperatures of 300 C, at which point the biomass
>> will Autochar itself up to 400-450C, an exothermic reaction.
>>
>> When I make charcoal using the cellulose combustion to heat the ~20%
>> remaining charcoal, temperatures are in the 500-700 C range, depending on
>> the insulation of the vessel and the combustion rate (superficial
velocity).
>>
>> It is hard for me to believe that no one has commented here (that I've
>> seen) on the advantage or disadvantage of the higher temperature
charcoals.
>>
>> Any and all comments welcome.
>>
>> Tom Reed
>>
>> Thomas B Reed
>> 280 Hardwick Rd
>> Barre, Ma 01005
>> 508-353-7841
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2013, at 2:00 PM,
stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.orgwrote:
>>
>> > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
>> >    stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>
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>> >
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >    stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >    stoves-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Information shared on this Listserve (Timothy Roy Longwell)
>> >   2. Re: Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens] (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
>> >   3. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Paul Anderson)
>> >   4. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> >      (Rebecca A. Vermeer)
>> >   5. Re: coconut usage in improved stoves continued (Tom Miles)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:21:52 +0000
>> > From: Timothy Roy Longwell <tlongwell at zamorano.edu>
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Subject: [Stoves] Information shared on this Listserve
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <EC67B308F6641743886918374ACE4076507EE159 at zamo-mail-02.zamorano.edu>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > Tom and Paul recently commented on the value of the information shared
>> on this Listserve and they had a vision of condensing and publishing
>> (before Tom retires) the combined experience and knowledge of the
exchanges
>> stored in the archives.
>> >
>> > I think that it would be fantastic if the GACC funded a consolidation
of
>> this listserve information.
>> >
>> > Chapters on the themes discussed on this list (fuels, combustion, user
>> preferences, durability, emissions, health, etc - or however it is
>> organized) would be extremely valuable and a great "snapshot" of where we
>> are and what is known.
>> >
>> > Kindest regards,
>> >
>> > Timothy Roy Longwell
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/at
tachments/20130616/d4d94283/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 14:42:36 +0000 (UTC)
>> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>,    Stephen Joseph
>> >    <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Biochar-production <Biochar-production at yahoogroups.com>,
>> >    biochar-soils <biochar-soils at yahoogroups.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
>> > Message-ID:
>> >    <
>>
803054761.289654.1371393756883.JavaMail.root at sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.comc
ast.net
>> >
>> >
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Stephen: stove list, adding two biochar lists
>> >
>> > Three question areas - because I sense several major - maybe new -
>> recommendations from you below.
>> >
>> > 1. I met Mr/Dr Khoi at the GACC meeting and thought his was a TLUD
>> design. Can you point me at a site where the design is drawn and
explained?
>> ( have looked a bit, unsuccessfully)
>> >
>> > 2. I have been long impressed by your use of solid state theory with
>> biochar - but I had previously thought you were talking only about
changes
>> after char placement in the soil.
>> > - Have you written up this idea of coating the biomass input to a
>> pyrolyzer with a clay to improve CEC?
>> > - Any experimental data yet in the field for char with and without a
>> clay coating during firing?
>> > - If one was making pellets out of almost anything, would you recommend
>> always a clay binder? (This has to be cheap.)
>> >
>> > 3. There are more than a few biochar proponents arguing for higher
>> temperature char production (more adsorption/absorption - 700-800 C?).
You
>> have long preferred lower temperatures I believe.(with or without clay).
>> Care to suggest an optimum T?
>> >
>> > Ron
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Stephen Joseph" <joey.stephen at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:29:34 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Paul
>> >
>> > No we are pyrolysing them in the outer chamber so they are not
subjected
>> to direct combustion.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mr Khoi's stove is not a TLUD. I would not recommend people use TLUD
>> stoves for rice husks unless they cover the husks with wet clay and then
>> dry the clay. This coating has the advantage of keeping the temperature
>> down and also activating the surface
>> >
>> >
>> > In any of my TLUD work I try to get people to coat their biomass in an
>> iron rick clay to improve both CEC and yields.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Paul Olivier <  
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Stephen,
>> >
>> > Are you burning rice hulls at a temperature less than 450 C?
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Stephen Joseph <  
>> joey.stephen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> > I paul
>> >
>> >
>> > Not if you use the design with an inner fire box and an outer pyrolysis
>> chamber as is Mr Khois design. In fact it is the main reason why I
>> recommended this design configuration and sizing to PED.
>> >
>> >
>> > We did a large research project with the Australia Government research
>> arm ACIAR to optimise the design.
>> >
>> >
>> > I have measurde the rice husk temperature in this outer chamber and it
>> stays pretty uniform at around 450C after the initial drying and
>> torrefaction phases.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Paul Olivier <  
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But, Stephen, temperatures can rise above 900 C when burning rice
hulls.
>> > If we operate at low temperatures (450 C) in burning rice hulls, are we
>> not inevitably making a lot of smoke?
>> >
>> > Even at relatively low average combustion temperatures, will there not
>> be a tendency for hot zones to form within the combustor?
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul Olivier
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Stephen Joseph <  
>> joey.stephen at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> > All
>> >
>> >
>> > There has been a lot of work done on formation of crystobalite. The
rate
>> of formation is both a function of time and temerature
>> >
>> >
>> > If you have low temperatures (450c) and short times (<60 minutes)you
>> wont produce it.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mehta in India did a lot of work on this in the 80's and published a
>> book on rice husk ash cement if I remember correctly
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Paul Olivier <  
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > I found this news report:
>> >
>>
http://www.ipsnews.net/2009/10/thailand-renewable-energy-not-so-clean-and-gr
een-after-all/
>> >
>> > Not such a nice story.
>> > I do not think it's a good idea to burn rice hulls or rice straw in
>> either power plants, brick kilns or household stoves.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Olivier <  
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > I have read in many articles that cristobalite can form at temperatures
>> of about 900 C.
>> > http://www.jicosh.gr.jp/old/niih/en/indu_hel/2004/pdf/42-2-24.pdf
>> > In burning rice hulls, temperatures can easily exceed 900 C.
>> > If cristobalite forms and is breathed in, human health is severely
>> impacted: silicosis, tuberculosis, cancer and so forth.
>> >
>> > Silica (SiO2) is a constituent of the ash produced by the combustion
>> process. Different
>> > types of biomass fuels contain different quantities of silica. The
>> International Agency for
>> > Research on Cancer has classified silica as a human carcinogen. Long
>> term inhalation
>> > of airborne silica particulates can cause lung cancer or other related
>> health problems.
>> > As rice hull ash contains high levels of silica (~15%), its use as a
>> biomass fuel
>> > presumably increases the risk of developing silicosis-related
illnesses,
>> and care should
>> > be used in handling the ash.
>> >
>>
http://www.reap-canada.com/online_library/IntDev/id_eco_sugarcane/7%20Strate
gies%20for.pdf
>> >
>> > Silica (SiO2) is the main mineral component of rice husk ash (RHA)
>> (85-90 per cent). It carries serious health risks, particularly to the
>> > respiratory system.
>> > http://www.dhf.uu.se/pdffiler/cc7/cc7_web_art4.pdf
>> >
>> > Cristobalite can be present in both the ash and fly ash. If someone
>> designs a stove to burn rice hulls or rice straw, he has to be sure that
>> temperatures remain below the point of cristobalite formation.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Tom Miles < tmiles at trmiles.com >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > <blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > After discussing rice hull combustion and gasification at some length
>> you are now saying this is dangerous. Why, specifically? You have
discussed
>> the potential to emit cristobalite but there is no evidence of the hazard
>> it presents. What evidence do you have that burning rice husks or rice
>> straw is a health hazard?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Stoves [mailto: stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org ] On
>> Behalf Of Paul Olivier
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:56 PM
>> > To: JJ Claire; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks [Ovens]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > JJ,
>> >
>> > I would not recommend that you burn rice hulls ir rice straw.
>> >
>> > In many cases this is quite dangerous.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 9:40 AM, JJ Claire < pugoclaire at yahoo.com >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Greetings one and all,
>> >
>> >
>> > I visit the Philippines often and usually stay about six months a year.
>> >
>> >
>> > I often use a rice hull stove. I would like to get a plan to build a
>> >
>> >
>> > concrete stove. I am also wondering if there is such a thing as
building
>> >
>> >
>> > an 'oven' using cement and/or concrete? I would like to build one,
>> >
>> >
>> > a white model if possible, [vice a black model], if such a plan is
>> >
>> >
>> > available and if the technology would be practical. We have a
>> >
>> >
>> > lot of rice hulls and not all that much firewood.
>> >
>> >
>> > I would be open to heating the oven with firewood and then
>> >
>> >
>> > maintaining the heat level with or by burning rice hulls. I have
>> >
>> >
>> > a lot of rice hulls and want to make the best use of the hulls.
>> >
>> >
>> > I currently use the wood ashes to make lye so I can make soap,
>> >
>> >
>> > but I have not used any ashes from rice hulls to make lye. I
>> >
>> >
>> > wonder if making lye with rice hulls is possible.
>> >
>> >
>> > The rice hull stoves we use are sort of a metal pail with a wire rack.
>> >
>> >
>> > I am looking for a stove, hopefully one that is hot, medium and cool,
>> >
>> >
>> > for cooking with rice hulls over a long number or years.
>> >
>> >
>> > On our island, rice hulls are still burned to 'get rid of them', and
>> >
>> >
>> > believe it or not, rice straw is still burned. I often ask neighboring
>> >
>> >
>> > farmers to bring me their straw and provide them a small bit of
>> >
>> >
>> > cash for doing so. We use the rice straw for making compost.
>> >
>> >
>> > We add some rice hulls to the compost. Most of the rice hulls
>> >
>> >
>> > are burned for fuel to cook with. We add the char from the cooking
>> >
>> >
>> > process to the garden. I am wondering if we are making the best
>> >
>> >
>> > use of the rice hulls and if the plans I am speaking of by post
>> >
>> >
>> > are available.
>> >
>> >
>> > Please inform, I am open to suggestions and direction.
>> >
>> >
>> > Blessings,
>> >
>> >
>> > JJ
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: " ajheggie at gmail.com " < ajheggie at gmail.com >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org >
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 5:02 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimneys, rice husks
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Default] On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:37:30 -0400,"Crispin
>> > Pemberton-Pigott" < crispinpigott at gmail.com > wrote:
>> >
>> >> We are experimenting in Indonesia with draft-operated buoyancy
>> balancers to limit the pull to the ideal even when combustion conditions
>> change in the large wood stoves. They are easy and cheap to make. They
are
>> mounted on the side of the stack of all oil furnaces.
>> >
>> > We have used them on pellet stoves (which have their own id fans) to
>> > limit draught on an insulated ss chimney that rose through 4 floors. I
>> > wasn't entirely happy with the idea as it raised the possibility of
>> > the boiler room getting combustion products if the seal wasn't good, I
>> > would have been happier if the air was sucked from outside. In fact
>> > there was subsequently a problem but this was down to poor
>> > maintenance.
>> >
>> > AJH
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> > </blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> >
>> > </blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> >
>> > </blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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>> >
>> >
>> > </blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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>> >
>> >
>> > </blockquote>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:57:19 -0500
>> > From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>, Hugh McLaughlin
>> >    <wastemin1 at verizon.net>,    Bob Fairchild <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> > Message-ID: <51BDE05F.4080909 at ilstu.edu>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > The discussion was about coconut SHELLS.   And I think that a 20 L
>> > "bucket" size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the
>> > "5G Toucan Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin.    (5G is 5 gallons is 20
>> > L).   And I ask Hugh to please point us to the best description /
>> > photos.    This is a single-walled fuel canister.
>> >
>> > Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the
>> > Peko Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters. In a warm
>> > climate (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with
>> > single-wall units that should work fine.   Have plenty of chimney to
get
>> > good natural draft.   There is no attempt to use the heat in these
trial
>> > runs.
>> >
>> > When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider
>> > going larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is
>> > sufficient supply of coconut shells.
>> >
>> > I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes
>> > charcoal from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char
>> > to Europe (because the shell-char is considered to be of such
>> > quality).   but I do not have that contact any longer.
>> >
>> > About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs.    All of my
>> > attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
>> >
>> > Paul      (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> >
>> > On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>> >> What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
>> >> dimensions and a fuel size?
>> >>
>> >> Tom
>> >>
>> >> T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
>> >> tmiles at trmiles.com <mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> >> Sent from mobile.
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu
>> >> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear Michael and Rebecca,
>> >>>
>> >>> The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
>> >>> referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
>> >>>> the use of primative
>> >>>> pit kilns and their pollution.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat.   A simple TLUD
>> >>> could also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
>> >>>
>> >>> There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see
>> >>> that the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
>> >>>
>> >>> THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the
>> >>> TChar designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
>> >>>
>> >>> ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using
>> >>> some of that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul
>> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> >>> Email:psanders at ilstu.edu    Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> >>> Website:www.drtlud.com
>> >>> On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
>> >>>> Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
>> >>>> We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
>> >>>> alternative fuels
>> >>>> In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for
>> >>>> various cocnut products as fuel
>> >>>> In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
>> >>>> had commented on the use of primative
>> >>>> pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
>> >>>> hopefully to reduce some polluion
>> >>>> Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive
>> >>>> for now she is going to be expanding her
>> >>>> rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up
>> >>>> on Rebacca's travails
>> >>>> I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
>> >>>> heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> Michael
>> >>>> Marshall Islands
>> >>>> --- Original Message -----
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    *From:* Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>> >>>>    *To:* Stoves Bioenergylist
<mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> >>>>    *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>> >>>>    *Sent:* Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
>> >>>>    *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Rebecca,
>> >>>>    Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in
>> >>>>    a gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same
>> >>>>    challenge to ignite and creating the pyrolytic front.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top
>> >>>>    of your coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more
>> >>>>    easily and ignite the chips, using woodshaveings or even gras,
>> >>>>    as a starter.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    REMEMBER:
>> >>>>    Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
>> >>>>    fueling Chamber!
>> >>>>    This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome
>> >>>>    of your  charcoal or biochar production.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Good Luck.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Thanks
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Otto
>> >>>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>    Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
>> >>>>    From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> >>>>    To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>>    CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
>> >>>>    Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Rebecca,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology
>> >>>>    is highly appropriate.   The density of the shell pieces makes
>> >>>>    them slightly difficult to initially light (the same as with
>> >>>>    densified wood pellets).   But just make a slightly larger and
>> >>>>    longer burning "starter fire" to get the initial layer of
>> >>>>    pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front that
>> >>>>    migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Paul
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> >>>>    Email:psanders at ilstu.edu  <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>    Skype:
>> paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> >>>>    Website:www.drtlud.com  <http://www.drtlud.com>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>        Michael,
>> >>>>        I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows
>> >>>>        the coconut so well!!   So I presume you know very well the
>> >>>>        native "tuba" drink from the flower shoot?  Do take a look
>> >>>>        at my photo album below :
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>>
https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>> >>>>
>> >>>>        -- you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;
>> >>>>        your preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from
>> >>>>        coconut shells (inside sacks and plastic bags).  The
>> >>>>        charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for the bucong I
>> >>>>        need to fire my eco-kalans.  Take a close look at photo #37
>> >>>>        -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses
>> >>>>        "oling" or coconut shell charcoal;  to the left you will
>> >>>>        find the big traditional kalans which can use firewood,
>> >>>>        "palwa" or "bucong". The "bucong" is the fuel of the poorest
>> >>>>        and the "bingka" or rice cake bakers;  the "palwa" is bought
>> >>>>        by the not so poor;  firewood by the middleclass;  and the
>> >>>>        "oling " is bought by the many food vendors (like "tocinos"
>> >>>>        -- similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat
>> >>>>        buns, boiling water for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and
>> >>>>        households for broiling fish and meats (sinugba).
>> >>>>        Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the
>> >>>>        ground --a smoky process with a lot of energy going to
>> >>>>        waste.  Do you know a better way??
>> >>>>        Rebecca
>> >>>>        *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >>>>        *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
>> >>>>        *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >>>>        <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>>>        *Subject:* [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >>>>        Dear Rebecca
>> >>>>        As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
>> >>>>        I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and
>> >>>>        flower shoot and fronds and shell
>> >>>>        Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized
>> >>>>        pieces. After the nuts are husked
>> >>>>        women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them
>> >>>>        in the yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
>> >>>>        Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn
>> >>>>        temperature make it very good for cooking rice.
>> >>>>        BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>> >>>>        I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra
>> >>>>        drier to produce better copra with out bugs and mold
>> >>>>        with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
>> >>>>        In more recent years the has been some switch to your
>> >>>>        "bucong" of course this mean no more shell left over.
>> >>>>        Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would
>> >>>>        be considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it
>> >>>>        tough stuff. I find slicing off the leaflets in the field
>> >>>>        and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped into segments
>> >>>>        and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like
>> >>>>        pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths
>> >>>>        are superb rocket stove fuel.
>> >>>>        Michael
>> >>>>        Marshall Islands
>> >>>>        ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>
>> >>>>            *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>> >>>>            *To:* ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >>>>            *Cc:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net> ;
>> >>>>            Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>> >>>>            *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
>> >>>>            *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >>>>            Hello Michael,
>> >>>>            Thank you for your suggestions and question.  My
>> >>>>            comments are as follows:
>> >>>>            1.  I have considered experimenting with high silicate
>> >>>>            ash from the foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of
>> >>>>            Negros Oriental.   The ash is free and my partners with
>> >>>>            the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
>> >>>>            Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the
>> >>>>            ash to Dumaguete City.  If this does not work, I'll
>> >>>>            follow up on the TLUD route.
>> >>>>            2.  Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have
>> >>>>            shown me their work with insulating bricks to form the
>> >>>>            combustion chamber in Timor Leste.  The insulating
>> >>>>            bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
>> >>>>            heavy duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the
>> >>>>            combustion chamber and to support big cooking pots.  I
>> >>>>            still think that tiny insulating "clay marbles" between
>> >>>>            the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
>> >>>>            chamber is the most practical way to pursue.  I am
>> >>>>            hopeful Rolf and ECOWORXX can find a way to produce
>> >>>>            these insulating clay marbles or pebbles cheaply.
>> >>>>            3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk -- it is a
>> >>>>            by-product of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production.
>> >>>>            Every 3 months, the coconuts are harvested, cut into 2
>> >>>>            halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make copra.
>> >>>>            The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds
>> >>>>            or storage buildings to make "bucong" -- the fuel we use
>> >>>>            to fire the eco-kalans to  900 degrees Celsius. To use
>> >>>>            the "bucong" or coconut husk with shell for fuel in a
>> >>>>            rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
>> >>>>            machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a
>> >>>>            combustion chamber opening  as wide and as high
>> >>>>            (5.5"x5.5") as that of the eco-kalan.
>> >>>>            Rebecca Vermeer
>> >>>>            Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
>> >>>>            British Columbia, Canada
>> >>>>            *From:* mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >>>>            *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
>> >>>>            *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >>>>            <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>>>            *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >>>>            Rebecca
>> >>>>            Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the
>> >>>>            low cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your
>> >>>>            insulation.
>> >>>>            Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire
>> >>>>            your liner in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the
>> >>>>            need to break
>> >>>>            things up.
>> >>>>            How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a
>> >>>>            rocket stove?
>> >>>>            Michael N Trevor
>> >>>>            Marshall Islands
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                *From:* Rebecca A. Vermeer
<mailto:ravermeer at telus.net
>> >
>> >>>>                *To:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >>>>                *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
>> >>>>                stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>>                <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>>>                *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
>> >>>>                *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove
life
>> >>>>                Paul,
>> >>>>                I currently use wood ash as  insulating material
>> >>>>                between the kalan and combustion chamber of the
>> >>>>                eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood, charcoal,
>> >>>>                coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the
>> >>>>                coconut tree). The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less
>> >>>>                firewood and therefore a lot less ash is produced
>> >>>>                compared to traditional kalans and other traditional
>> >>>>                cookstoves in Negros Oriental, Philippines.   A
>> >>>>                shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>> >>>>                or which affects  sales of eco-kalan.    I  have
>> >>>>                considered making an insulating material  using a
>> >>>>                50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay in the form
>> >>>>                of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces
>> >>>>                after firing.  I would fire the pellets or the
>> >>>>                bricks along with the eco-kalans up to 900 degrees
>> >>>>                Celsius.  Will there be significant formation of
>> >>>>                cristobalite under these conditions?  Would handling
>> >>>>                the fired pellets or the breaking of the bricks be a
>> >>>>                health hazard?  Thanks,
>> >>>>                Rebecca Vermeer
>> >>>>                *From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >>>>                *Sent:* Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
>> >>>>                *To:* Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>> >>>>                *Cc:* Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com> ;
>> >>>>                stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>>                <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> ; larry
>> >>>>                winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
>> >>>>                *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
>> >>>>                stove life
>> >>>>                Rebecca,
>> >>>>                If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a
>> >>>>                lot of cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this
>> >>>>                problem should be minimized, provided channeling
>> >>>>                does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
>> >>>>                the particulate matter in the combustion gases. With
>> >>>>                rice hull pellets in a TLUD  we have a lot less
>> >>>>                channeling, and a lot less particulate matter.
>> >>>>                Therefore the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive
>> >>>>                fuel for these and many other reasons.
>> >>>>                Thanks.
>> >>>>                Paul Olivier
>> >>>>                On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer"
>> >>>>                <ravermeer at telus.net <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>>
>> >>>>                wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    Hello Paul,
>> >>>>                    Larry just told me that the silica content of
>> >>>>                    rice hull ash is over 90%.  At the ETHOS 2013
>> >>>>                    Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
>> >>>>                    Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.
>> >>>>                    Given your comment below regarding cristobalite
>> >>>>                    "which is a nasty carcinogen" and severely
>> >>>>                    hazardous to human health (see link below),
>> >>>>                    would you recommend the use of  rice hull as a
>> >>>>                    household fuel for cookstoves?
>> >>>>                    Rebecca Vermeer
>> >>>>                    CRISTOBALITE LINK:
>> >>>>
>> http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
>> >>>>                    *From:* Paul Olivier
>> >>>>                    <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >>>>                    *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
>> >>>>                    *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >>>>                    <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>>>                    *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and
>> >>>>                    stove life
>> >>>>                    Paal,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    One thing I look for on my burner is that all
>> >>>>                    burner holes support a flame throughout the
>> >>>>                    process. If channeling occurs during the process
>> >>>>                    or if char is being burned as the process comes
>> >>>>                    to a close, then one can see burner holes that
>> >>>>                    do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is
>> >>>>                    being discharged from the burner holes, and of
>> >>>>                    course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is formed,
>> >>>>                    this represents a big inefficiency, since
>> >>>>                    combustion takes place far below the pot. When
>> >>>>                    this happens the sides of the reactor can easily
>> >>>>                    turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is
>> >>>>                    possible to spot the presence of CO2 if the top
>> >>>>                    of the reactor stays open and does not have a
>> >>>>                    lid with burner holes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting
>> >>>>                    in channeling, it can happen that only a few
>> >>>>                    holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
>> >>>>                    support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit
>> >>>>                    and shake the reactor, this problem is
>> >>>>                    immediately corrected. Also the effect of the
>> >>>>                    presence of CO2 can be spotted by the cook in
>> >>>>                    another way. The distribution of heat to the pan
>> >>>>                    is not even.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    Also many of the positive characteristics of
>> >>>>                    biochar are lost when biochar is combusted and
>> >>>>                    is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
>> >>>>                    biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and
>> >>>>                    the combustion of biochar takes place if the fan
>> >>>>                    is not turned off at the end of the process.
>> >>>>                    Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at
>> >>>>                    all the same thing when it comes to growing
>> >>>>                    plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain
>> >>>>                    cristobalite, which is a nasty carcinogen. Under
>> >>>>                    ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
>> >>>>                    handling this stuff.
>> >>>>                    Thanks.
>> >>>>                    Paul
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo
>> >>>>                    <paaw at online.no <mailto:paaw at online.no>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                        Ron
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                        By end of flame the color of the char is red
>> >>>>                        to yellow, that indicate a temperature of
>> >>>>                        700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke,
>> >>>>                        complete combustion has taken place. Is that
>> >>>>                        not good for biochar?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                        Regards Paal W
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
_______________________________________________
>> >>>>                        Stoves mailing list
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>> >>>>                        stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>                        for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and
>> >>>>                        Information see our web site:
>> >>>>                        http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    --
>> >>>>                    Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> >>>>                    26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> >>>>                    Dalat
>> >>>>                    Vietnam
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                    Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings
Vietnam)
>> >>>>                    Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> >>>>                    Skype address: Xpolivier
>> >>>>                    http://www.esrla.com/
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>>                    for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
>> >>>>                    Information see our web site:
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>
>> >>>>                No virus found in this message.
>> >>>>                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> >>>>                Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6406 -
>> >>>>                Release Date: 06/12/13
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>>
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tachments/20130616/db4e65be/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:08:33 -0700
>> > From: "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> >    <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson <jonnygms at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> > Message-ID: <3DE7BB1E424E44F89BCFDF1D258CD8E2 at RebeccaHP>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Dear ALL,
>> > Thank you for your suggestions ?all food for thought.  I don?t think I
>> will have a problem igniting and creating the pyrolytic front for the
>> conversion of coconut shells into  ?oling? (coconut charcoal) if I use an
>> upper layer of ?bucong? ?coconut husk with the shell in it.  I have fired
>> my eco-kalans to 900 degrees Celsius over a 10 hour period without
problem
>> sustaining any temperature level.  To answer Paul, I do not have any
>> knowledge base on TLUD technology but I am learning from these
discussions
>> and hope to learn more at Stove camp.  I think it has potential for
coconut
>> charcoal making but I doubt if any of the TLUD stoves to date can beat
the
>> all around cooking performance of the  marathon running eco-kalan (yes, a
>> clay rocket stove!!).  By the way, the charcoal performs very well also
in
>> the eco-kalan.  You just have to double up the parilla (fuel shelf) ?see
>> video towards the end, Cooking with Oling at
>> > http://youtu.be/mRdwiWkVf30
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Rebecca
>> > From: mtrevor
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 3:52 AM
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> >
>> > Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
>> > We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
alternative
>> fuels
>> > In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
>> cocnut products as fuel
>> > In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
had
>> commented on the use of primative
>> > pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
>> hopefully to reduce some polluion
>> >
>> > Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for
>> now she is going to be expanding her
>> > rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on
>> Rebacca's travails
>> >
>> > I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
>> heat and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
>> > .
>> >
>> > Michael
>> > Marshall Islands
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- Original Message -----
>> >  From: Otto Formo
>> >  To: Stoves Bioenergylist
>> >  Cc: Jon Anderson
>> >  Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
>> >  Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> >  Rebecca,
>> >  Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a
>> gasifier unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to
ignite
>> and creating the pyrolytic front.
>> >
>> >  I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
>> coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite the
>> chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
>> >
>> >  REMEMBER:
>> >  Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the
fueling
>> Chamber!
>> >  This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
>>  charcoal or biochar production.
>> >
>> >  Good Luck.
>> >
>> >  Thanks
>> >
>> >  Otto
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>> >  Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
>> >  From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> >  To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >  CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
>> >  Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> >
>> >  Rebecca,
>> >
>> >  To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is
>> highly appropriate.   The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
>> difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
>> But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to get
>> the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic front
>> that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>> >
>> >  How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>> >
>> >  Paul
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:  www.drtlud.comOn 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer
wrote:
>> >
>> >    Michael,
>> >    I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the
>> coconut so well!!   So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba?
drink
>> from the flower shoot?  Do take a look at my photo album below :
>> >
>> >
>>
https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>> >
>> >    ? you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;  your
>> preferred frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells
>> (inside sacks and plastic bags).  The charcoal makers are my biggest
>> competitors for the bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans.  Take a close
look
>> at photo #37 -the small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses
>> ?oling? or coconut shell charcoal;  to the left you will find the big
>> traditional kalans which can use firewood,  ?palwa? or ?bucong?.  The
>> ?bucong? is the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers;
>>  the ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor;  firewood by the middleclass;
>>  and the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? ?
>> similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling
water
>> for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish and
>> meats (sinugba).
>> >
>> >    Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground ?a
>> smoky process with a lot of energy going to waste.  Do you know a better
>> way??
>> >
>> >    Rebecca
>> >    From: mtrevor
>> >    Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
>> >    To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >    Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> >    Dear Rebecca
>> >    As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
>> >    I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot
>> and fronds and shell
>> >    Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces.
>> After the nuts are husked
>> >    women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the
>> yards. It is exhausting back breaking work
>> >    Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature
>> make it very good for cooking rice.
>> >    BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>> >
>> >    I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
>> produce better copra with out bugs and mold
>> >    with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
>> >    In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of
>> course this mean no more shell left over.
>> >    Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be
>> considered a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find
>> slicing off the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib
>> chopped into segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick
>> like pieces feed into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb
>> rocket stove fuel.
>> >
>> >
>> >    Michael
>> >    Marshall Islands
>> >
>> >    ----- Original Message -----
>> >      From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
>> >      To: ; Michael N. Trevor
>> >      Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer ; Jon Anderson
>> >      Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
>> >      Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >      Hello Michael,
>> >      Thank you for your suggestions and question.  My comments are as
>> follows:
>> >      1.  I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from
the
>> foot of Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental.   The ash is
free
>> and my partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and
>> the Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to
Dumaguete
>> City.  If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
>> >
>> >      2.  Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their
>> work with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor
Leste.
>>  The insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
>> heavy duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber
>> and to support big cooking pots.  I still think that tiny insulating
?clay
>> marbles? between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
>> chamber is the most practical way to pursue.  I am hopeful Rolf and
>> ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or
pebbles
>> cheaply.
>> >
>> >      3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk ? it is a by-product
>> of COPRA (mature coconut meat) production.  Every 3 months, the coconuts
>> are harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
>> copra.   The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or
>> storage buildings to make ?bucong? ? the fuel we use to fire the
eco-kalans
>> to  900 degrees Celsius.  To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk with shell
>> for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with a
machete
>> into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber opening
as
>> wide and as high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
>> >
>> >      Rebecca Vermeer
>> >      Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
>> >      British Columbia, Canada
>> >
>> >      From: mtrevor
>> >      Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
>> >      To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >      Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >      Rebecca
>> >      Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low
>> cristobalite "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
>> >      Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner
>> in multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
>> >      things up.
>> >
>> >      How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
>> >
>> >      Michael N Trevor
>> >      Marshall Islands
>> >        From: Rebecca A. Vermeer
>> >        To: Paul Olivier
>> >        Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >        Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
>> >        Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >        Paul,
>> >        I currently use wood ash as  insulating material between the
>> kalan and combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood,
>> charcoal, coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut
tree).
>>  The eco-kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is
>> produced compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves
in
>> Negros Oriental, Philippines.   A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>> >
>> >        or which affects  sales of eco-kalan.    I  have considered
>> making an insulating material  using a  50-50 mix by volume of rice hull
&
>> clay in the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces
after
>> firing.  I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans
>> up to 900 degrees Celsius.  Will there be significant formation of
>> cristobalite under these conditions?  Would handling the fired pellets or
>> the breaking of the bricks be a health hazard?  Thanks,
>> >
>> >        Rebecca Vermeer
>> >
>> >        From: Paul Olivier
>> >        Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
>> >        To: Rebecca A. Vermeer
>> >        Cc: Jon Anderson ; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org ; larry
>> winiarski
>> >        Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >        Rebecca,
>> >        If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of
>> cristobalite formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized,
>> provided channeling does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in
the
>> particulate matter in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a
>> TLUD  we have a lot less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter.
>> Therefore the rice hull pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and
>> many other reasons.
>> >        Thanks.
>> >        Paul Olivier
>> >
>> >        On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <
>> ravermeer at telus.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >          Hello Paul,
>> >          Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is
>> over 90%.  At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in
>> the Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.  Given your comment below
>> regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely
hazardous
>> to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use of  rice
hull
>> as a household fuel for cookstoves?
>> >
>> >          Rebecca Vermeer
>> >
>> >          CRISTOBALITE LINK:
>> >          http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
>> >          From: Paul Olivier
>> >          Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
>> >          To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> >          Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >          Paal,
>> >
>> >
>> >          One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes
>> support a flame throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the
>> process or if char is being burned as the process comes to a close, then
>> one can see burner holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2
>> is being discharged from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not
burn.
>> When CO2 is formed, this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion
>> takes place far below the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor
>> can easily turn red hot and melt. I do not know how it is possible to
spot
>> the presence of CO2 if the top of the reactor stays open and does not
have
>> a lid with burner holes.
>> >
>> >
>> >          If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in
channeling,
>> it can happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do
not
>> support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor, this
>> problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of CO2
>> can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to
the
>> pan is not even.
>> >
>> >
>> >          Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost
>> when biochar is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of
biomass
>> and biochar takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of
>> biochar takes place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the
process.
>> Rice hull ash and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it
>> comes to growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain
>> cristobalite, which is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no
>> farmer should be handling this stuff.
>> >
>> >
>> >          Thanks.
>> >
>> >          Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >          On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo
<paaw at online.no>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >            Ron
>> >
>> >            By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that
>> indicate a temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke,
>> complete combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
>> >
>> >            Regards Paal W
>> >
>> >
>> >            _______________________________________________
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>> our web site:
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >          --
>> >          Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> >          26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> >          Dalat
>> >          Vietnam
>> >
>> >          Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> >          Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> >          Skype address: Xpolivier
>> >          http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
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>> >        Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6406 - Release Date:
>> 06/12/13
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>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 10:11:21 -0700
>> > From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> > To: "'Paul Anderson'" <psanders at ilstu.edu>,    "'Discussion of biomass
>> >    cooking stoves'" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Cc: 'Jon Anderson' <jonnygms at gmail.com>,    'Hugh McLaughlin'
>> >    <wastemin1 at verizon.net>,    'Bob Fairchild' <solarbobky at yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> > Message-ID: <007c01ce6ab4$8788f380$969ada80$@trmiles.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987"
>> >
>> > Thanks Paul. That sounds like a good place to start.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Paul Anderson [mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu]
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 8:57 AM
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Cc: Tom Miles Easystreet; Jon Anderson; Hugh McLaughlin; Bob Fairchild
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves continued
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > The discussion was about coconut SHELLS.   And I think that a 20 L
>> "bucket"
>> > size would be an impressive demonstration, and I would use the "5G
Toucan
>> > Flex" design by Hugh McLaughlin.    (5G is 5 gallons is 20 L).   And I
>> ask
>> > Hugh to please point us to the best description / photos.    This is a
>> > single-walled fuel canister.
>> >
>> > Could start smaller with the "Champion" size which is similar to the
Peko
>> > Pe, all of which have about 6 inch (15 cm) diameters.   In a warm
climate
>> > (away from frigid breezes), it is easiest to start with single-wall
units
>> > that should work fine.   Have plenty of chimney to get good natural
>> draft.
>> > There is no attempt to use the heat in these trial runs.
>> >
>> > When successful (and please report whatever results occur), consider
>> going
>> > larger to 12 - 15 inch (30 - 40 cm) diameter, if there is sufficient
>> supply
>> > of coconut shells.
>> >
>> > I have had contact with at least one commercial entity that makes
>> charcoal
>> > from coconut shells in south-eastern India and sells the char to Europe
>> > (because the shell-char is considered to be of such quality).   but I
do
>> > not have that contact any longer.
>> >
>> > About coconut HUSKS, I hope some people try them in TLUDs.    All of my
>> > attempts (just a few) were not worthy of replication.
>> >
>> > Paul      (headed to Uganda Monday until 9 July)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> >
>> > On 6/16/2013 9:08 AM, Tom Miles Easystreet wrote:
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > What would a TLUD sized for coconut husks look like? Can you suggest
>> > dimensions and a fuel size?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> > T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
>> >
>> > tmiles at trmiles.com
>> >
>> > Sent from mobile.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jun 16, 2013, at 4:21 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Michael and Rebecca,
>> >
>> > The suggestion by Otto and myself about using TLUD technology is NOT
>> > referring to the cooking stoves specifically, but refers to the
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > the use of primative
>> >
>> > pit kilns and their pollution.
>> >
>> >
>> > In the pit kilns, they are already wasting the heat.   A simple TLUD
>> could
>> > also waste the heat, AND avoid the pollution.
>> >
>> > There is every reason for Rebecca to make a simple TLUD just to see
that
>> > the char can be made for cooking in charcoal stoves.
>> >
>> > THEN, people could start to consider TLUD stoves, especially the TChar
>> > designs that couple with the charcoal stoves.
>> >
>> > ALSO, when char is easily and cleanly made, the prospect of using some
of
>> > that char to improve poor soils could become of interest.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> >
>> > On 6/16/2013 5:52 AM, mtrevor wrote:
>> >
>> > Rebecca has primarily worked with fired clay rocket stoves.
>> >
>> > We were discussing the use of various parts of the cocnut as
alternative
>> > fuels
>> >
>> > In the Philipines they have a fairly well developen market for various
>> > cocnut products as fuel
>> >
>> > In particulat they have wide spread fired clay charcoal burners. She
had
>> > commented on the use of primative
>> >
>> > pit kilns and their pollution/ I pointed her toward Amy Smiths work
>> > hopefully to reduce some polluion
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Moving into retorts or TLUD unit may be in the future but I beleive for
>> now
>> > she is going to be expanding her
>> >
>> > rocket stove capabilities. I am glad to see other picking up on
Rebacca's
>> > travails
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I am not much into charcoal until I can find a effective use for its
heat
>> > and smoke, maybe a copra dryer.
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > Marshall Islands
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > From: Otto Formo <mailto:terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>> >
>> > To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:13 PM
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca,
>> > Haveing tested briquettes made out of rice husks and sawdust in a
>> gasifier
>> > unit (Natural Draft), we experienced the same challenge to ignite and
>> > creating the pyrolytic front.
>> >
>> > I would suggest you create an upper layer of woodchips, on top of your
>> > coconutshells, to create that pyrolytic front more easily and ignite
the
>> > chips, using woodshaveings or even gras, as a starter.
>> >
>> > REMEMBER:
>> > Do not pour liquid materials, like kerosine , directly into the fueling
>> > Chamber!
>> > This will distrub the pyrolytic process and reduce the outcome of your
>> > charcoal or biochar production.
>> >
>> > Good Luck.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Otto
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 23:03:35 -0500
>> > From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> > CC: jonnygms at gmail.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> > Rebecca,
>> >
>> > To make your oling (coconut shell charcoal), the TLUD technology is
>> highly
>> > appropriate.   The density of the shell pieces makes them slightly
>> > difficult to initially light (the same as with densified wood pellets).
>> > But just make a slightly larger and longer burning "starter fire" to
get
>> > the initial layer of pyrolyzing biomass that becomes the pyrolytic
front
>> > that migrates slowly down through the column of shell pieces.
>> >
>> > How familiar are you with the TLUD technology?
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> >
>> > On 6/15/2013 12:48 AM, Rebecca A. Vermeer wrote:
>> >
>> > Michael,
>> >
>> > I am so pleased to meet an ex copra maker and one who knows the coconut
>> so
>> > well!!   So I presume you know very well the native ?tuba? drink from
the
>> > flower shoot?  Do take a look at my photo album below :
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <
>>
https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/588951149628016
>> >
>>
0113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444>
>> >
>>
https://plus.google.com/photos/113101643783889350444/albums/5889511496280160
>> >
113/5889528293743607618?pid=5889528293743607618&oid=113101643783889350444
>> >
>> > - you will see the coconut husk (bucong) strung together;  your
preferred
>> > frond mid ribs (palwa) and the charcoal from coconut shells (inside
sacks
>> > and plastic bags).  The charcoal makers are my biggest competitors for
>> the
>> > bucong I need to fire my eco-kalans.  Take a close look at photo #37
-the
>> > small pottery to the right which looks like a vase uses ?oling? or
>> > coconut shell charcoal;  to the left you will find the big traditional
>> > kalans which can use firewood,  ?palwa? or ?bucong?.  The ?bucong? is
>> > the fuel of the poorest and the ?bingka? or rice cake bakers;  the
>> > ?palwa? is bought by the not so poor;  firewood by the middleclass;
and
>> > the ?oling ? is bought by the many food vendors (like ?tocinos? -
>> > similar to sate in Malaysia or Indonesia, steamed meat buns, boiling
>> water
>> > for disinfecting spoons & forks....) and households for broiling fish
and
>> > meats (sinugba).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Oling is made by burning coconut shellls in a hole in the ground -a
smoky
>> > process with a lot of energy going to waste.  Do you know a better
way??
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca
>> >
>> > From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:31 PM
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > Subject: [Stoves] coconut usage in improved stoves
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Rebecca
>> >
>> > As an ex copra maker I have met the coconut and know it well.
>> >
>> > I have made copra by the tons. I know coconut husk and flower shoot and
>> > fronds and shell
>> >
>> > Here the husks are generally burned in 3/4/5 wedge sized pieces. After
>> the
>> > nuts are husked
>> >
>> > women haul them in from the husking areas and sun dry them in the
yards.
>> It
>> > is exhausting back breaking work
>> >
>> > Husk is a pretty good mosquito chaser and its low burn temperature make
>> it
>> > very good for cooking rice.
>> >
>> > BUT THE SMOKE!!!!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I would like to see a retort system running heat to a copra drier to
>> > produce better copra with out bugs and mold
>> >
>> > with coconut shell charcoal for sale as a by product.
>> >
>> > In more recent years the has been some switch to your "bucong" of
course
>> > this mean no more shell left over.
>> >
>> > Splitting husk with shell in to multiple little wedges would be
>> considered
>> > a lot of additional work. Coconut husk it tough stuff. I find slicing
off
>> > the leaflets in the field and using the coconut frond mid rib chopped
>> into
>> > segments and split length wise easier. The resulting stick like pieces
>> feed
>> > into a rocket stove easier. The flower spaths are superb rocket stove
>> fuel.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > Marshall Islands
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >
>> > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>> >
>> > To: ; Michael N. Trevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >
>> > Cc: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>  ; Jon Anderson
>> > <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:30 AM
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello Michael,
>> >
>> > Thank you for your suggestions and question.  My comments are as
follows:
>> >
>> > 1.  I have considered experimenting with high silicate ash from the
foot
>> of
>> > Mt. Canlaon, in northern part of Negros Oriental.   The ash is free and
>> my
>> > partners with the 11th IB of the Philippine Army in Negros Or. and the
>> > Memorial Elementary School in Canlaon would bring the ash to Dumaguete
>> > City.  If this does not work, I?ll follow up on the TLUD route.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2.  Jon & Flip Anderson (Aprovecho volunteers) have shown me their work
>> > with insulating bricks to form the combustion chamber in Timor Leste.
>>  The
>> > insulating bricks are weak, fragile bricks which require a strong,
heavy
>> > duty shell exterior (e.g. cement)to protect the combustion chamber and
to
>> > support big cooking pots.  I still think that tiny insulating ?clay
>> > marbles? between the heavy duty, all clay, fired kalan and combustion
>> > chamber is the most practical way to pursue.  I am hopeful Rolf and
>> > ECOWORXX can find a way to produce these insulating clay marbles or
>> pebbles
>> > cheaply.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 3. For those who have not seen a coconut husk - it is a by-product of
>> COPRA
>> > (mature coconut meat) production.  Every 3 months, the coconuts are
>> > harvested, cut into 2 halves, and meat is extracted and dried to make
>> > copra.   The husk and inside shell is dried in roof-covered sheds or
>> > storage buildings to make ?bucong? - the fuel we use to fire the eco-
>> > kalans to  900 degrees Celsius.  To use the ?bucong? or coconut husk
with
>> > shell for fuel in a rocket stove, it is requires chopping the husk with
a
>> > machete into narrow wedges (like a cantaloupe) and a combustion chamber
>> > opening  as wide and as high (5.5?x5.5?) as that of the eco-kalan.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca Vermeer
>> >
>> > Eco-Kalan Project in the Philippines
>> >
>> > British Columbia, Canada
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: mtrevor <mailto:mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> >
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 1:44 AM
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca
>> >
>> > Why not gassify rice hulls in a TLUD and then use the low cristobalite
>> > "tough" high silicate ash to mix your insulation.
>> >
>> > Perhaps take a lead fom Aprovecho's play book and fire your liner in
>> > multiple wedge shaped pieces negating the need to break
>> >
>> > things up.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > How do to "prepare" your coconut husks for use in a rocket stove?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> >
>> > Marshall Islands
>> >
>> > From: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>> >
>> > To: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  ;
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
>> > org
>> >
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 8:25 PM
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > I currently use wood ash as  insulating material between the kalan and
>> > combustion chamber of the eco-kalan (a rocket stove using wood,
charcoal,
>> > coconut husk, shell, fronds and other parts of the coconut tree).  The
>> eco-
>> > kalan uses 75-85% less firewood and therefore a lot less ash is
produced
>> > compared to traditional kalans and other traditional cookstoves in
Negros
>> > Oriental, Philippines.   A shortage in supply of ash is one fact
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > or which affects  sales of eco-kalan.    I  have considered making an
>> > insulating material  using a  50-50 mix by volume of rice hull & clay
in
>> > the form of pellets or bricks which would be broken to pieces after
>> firing.
>> > I would fire the pellets or the bricks along with the eco-kalans up to
>> 900
>> > degrees Celsius.  Will there be significant formation of cristobalite
>> under
>> > these conditions?  Would handling the fired pellets or the breaking of
>> the
>> > bricks be a health hazard?  Thanks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca Vermeer
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2013 12:07 AM
>> >
>> > To: Rebecca A. Vermeer <mailto:ravermeer at telus.net>
>> >
>> > Cc: Jon Anderson <mailto:jonnygms at gmail.com>  ;
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
>> > org ; larry winiarski <mailto:larryw at gotsky.com>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: Fw: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca,
>> > If we directly burn river hulls, there should be a lot of cristobalite
>> > formed. If we gasify, this problem should be minimized, provided
>> channeling
>> > does not occur. Also there might be cristobalite in the particulate
>> matter
>> > in the combustion gases. With rice hull pellets in a TLUD  we have a
lot
>> > less channeling, and a lot less particulate matter. Therefore the rice
>> hull
>> > pellet becomes an attractive fuel for these and many other reasons.
>> > Thanks.
>> > Paul Olivier
>> >
>> > On Jun 14, 2013 1:44 PM, "Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer at telus.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Paul,
>> >
>> > Larry just told me that the silica content of rice hull ash is over
90%.
>> > At the ETHOS 2013 Conference, I saw a TURBO stove developed in the
>> > Philippines which used rice hull for fuel.  Given your comment below
>> > regarding cristobalite ?which is a nasty carcinogen? and severely
>> > hazardous to human health (see link below), would you recommend the use
>> of
>> > rice hull as a household fuel for cookstoves?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebecca Vermeer
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > CRISTOBALITE LINK:
>> >
>> > http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1657.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Paul Olivier <mailto:paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:01 AM
>> >
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] : Re: Insulation and stove life
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paal,
>> >
>> > One thing I look for on my burner is that all burner holes support a
>> flame
>> > throughout the process. If channeling occurs during the process or if
>> char
>> > is being burned as the process comes to a close, then one can see
burner
>> > holes that do not support a flame. This means that CO2 is being
>> discharged
>> > from the burner holes, and of course CO2 does not burn. When CO2 is
>> formed,
>> > this represents a big inefficiency, since combustion takes place far
>> below
>> > the pot. When this happens the sides of the reactor can easily turn red
>> hot
>> > and melt. I do not know how it is possible to spot the presence of CO2
if
>> > the top of the reactor stays open and does not have a lid with burner
>> holes.
>> >
>> > If one turns up the fan a bit too high resulting in channeling, it can
>> > happen that only a few holes (among a total of 80 in my case) do not
>> > support a flame. If I turn the fan down a bit and shake the reactor,
this
>> > problem is immediately corrected. Also the effect of the presence of
CO2
>> > can be spotted by the cook in another way. The distribution of heat to
>> the
>> > pan is not even.
>> >
>> > Also many of the positive characteristics of biochar are lost when
>> biochar
>> > is combusted and is reduced to ash. The combustion of biomass and
biochar
>> > takes place when channeling occurs, and the combustion of biochar takes
>> > place if the fan is not turned off at the end of the process. Rice hull
>> ash
>> > and rice hill biochar are not at all the same thing when it comes to
>> > growing plants. Also rice hull ash can easily contain cristobalite,
which
>> > is a nasty carcinogen. Under ordinary conditions, no farmer should be
>> > handling this stuff.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Paal Wendelbo <paaw at online.no> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > By end of flame the color of the char is red to yellow, that indicate a
>> > temperature of 700 to 800 ?C and when there is no smoke, complete
>> > combustion has taken place. Is that not good for biochar?
>> >
>> > Regards Paal W
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>>
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>>
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6406 - Release Date:
06/12/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6406 - Release Date:
06/12/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _____
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to
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>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
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>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >  _____
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6413 - Release Date:
06/15/13
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>>
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>>
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>> > .org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/at
tachments/20130616/a4358b94/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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.org
>> >
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>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
site:
>> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 34, Issue 30
>> > **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>

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