[Stoves] Boiled 520 grams of 14C water in 3:20 minutes

Sun May 5 22:54:44 CDT 2013

Jock, Paul, list etal 

1. I am entering this dialog with some trepidation - entering mainly 
because I have seen more of Jock's photos than most on this list 
because it took me some time to figure out (I think) what Jock is doing 
because Jock asked for comments (and I could well have some of the following wrong but need to ask) 
because I have been talking off-list with Dr. Paul Olivier on a possible way to do premixed combustion rather than diffusion type 
because I have talked a good bit with Nat Mulcahy and have operated his Lucia design (with pre-mixing) with a fan/blower 
because I admire the Phillips stove 
because all the above have used fans and have nice results 

2. I believe that Jock has not made clear that he has 4 or 5 separate cylindrical and conical parts - mostly concentric. This is much more than most. Oilvier has 2 (top and bottom), Mulcahy has two concentric and two top and bottom. The Phillips has more than 5. His parts are (from bottom up 
a) We have seen photos of the hole pattern on the bottom inner piece that carries the pellets. Must (?) have a 7" diameter. There is an important inner metal disk at the top that forces all the gases to the outer annulus where they ignite. Jock has been setting this central lower can on a fixed speed fan which is to be replaced with a lower power speed-controlled fan ASAP. All the other fan stoves also do this. 
b) Surrounding this to provide preheating of secondary air is a section of 8" stove pipe. Ar flowing up to the disk region. The Phillps and Lucia have this, Olivier does not 

c) above a) is a conical transition from 7" to 6" - inside of which is (to be, not yet) a fan for secondary air only. I don't understand the inlet or outlet of this - and it may be something that is not yet in operation (awaiting a fan). This is unique to what Jock is doing - and I may have this piece all wrong, but Jock has described this to some of us. 
d) surrounding c) and above b) is a similar cone, transitioning from 8" to 6"; this is to provide height for completion of the diffusion flame. Others with fans are not doing this, but everyone with natural draft has to have this. I don't know of any other with this conical feature - presumably desgned to get a flame with smaller diameter. 

e. Next is a grate to set the pot on. Everybody has this. Jock's rests on d). Jock is still experimenting with different grate types and heights 

f) The vessel carrying the water is next. Everyone has this . 
g) There is a skirt surrounding f). Many have this, but not yet any of the other fan stoves listed above (I think) 

3. Paul and I saw the Phillips at the GACC meeting. Anyone know the website of the new (African) manufacturer? This stove has been highly rated by Jim Jetter, Dean Still and others. Although not listed as a charcoal maker, it is one. One amazing feature to me is the large number of concentric heat reflecting cylinders - that preheat the secondary air. Mulcahy also has this preheating feature, but only one extra layer rather than (about ) 5 layers radially with the Phillips. The Phillps of course is also unique in having a TEG system to run the fan. 

4. So my initial comments to Jock are, 
a) based on what others are doing, that you may have excessive height and complexity for the flame. 
b) I certainly don't understand the part c) above. I worry about lifetime of a fan in that hot environment 
c) You have mentioned possibly going to a large number of flamelet holes, but maybe the Phillps and Mulcahy ring designs are also worth looking at. 
d) I think there is potential for radial slits in the Olivier top plate - still trying to get relatively short diffusion type "flamelets".. 
e) Mulcahy is successful with pre-mixing because his pyrolysis gases can travel up the entire height of the fuel container (because of the Venturi effect she uses). Not easy to do for TLUDs. Easy for his TLOD. 

Hope this helps advance Jock's nice new fan effort.. To me the key was seeing there are two concentric conical sections planned . I believe only the outer one now. Jock? 

Ron 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan P Gill" <jg45 at me.com> 
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> 
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:17:17 PM 
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Boiled 520 grams of 14C water in 3:20 minutes 

Paul, 

In the past I did not use fans. There is, currently, too large a fan at the base of the Rim Fire iCan. Without a fan, or a draft inducing "stack", I do not think there is any way that a Belinio, Olivier, or Rim Fire iCan would work. 

One if the advantages of a fan is eliminating the need for a stack and thus being able to place pots and pans as close to the flames as possible. 

Hugh has been trying to get me to play with fan powered stoves for a long time. 

I will see about shipping you a unit for testing. But first I have some more work to do on the design MRI improve it a bit. 

Thanks for your interest. 

Cheers, 

Jock 

Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! 

On May 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, Paul Anderson < psanders at ilstu.edu > wrote: 

Jock, 

Thanks for the explanation. Most of my message below is comments 

1. Belonio and Olivier have fans for FA, forcing the gases up through the holes. You do not. So you will have less flexibility in your operations. 

2. You are accomplishing the mixing (turbulance) of gases and air by having a relatively think layer (like a cylinder or annulus ) of gases rising up into an area with air (oxygen). The air is coming from the outer side of the annulus. Difficult for secondary air to be on the inside of the annulus except what can come in from over the top of the flames. 

3. As Jock pointed out, testing of this configuration would help us understand the emissions, etc. 

Jock, can you provide one used functional unit for testing purposes at the Stove Camp this summer at Aprovecho? I and participants will have the opportunity to test many stoves at that time. The unit needs to be sent to Aprovecho by July or to me in Illinois by mid July so that I can take it with me in my car. 

Paul 
Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com On 5/5/2013 3:03 PM, Jonathan P Gill wrote: 

<blockquote>
Paul, 

Good to hear from you. 

Here are a few pictures I hope will help answer your question. 

The design I am working on was informed by the work of Prof. Bolinio and Paul Oliver. They place a cap, a burner plate with two rings of holes for blue flamelets, over the reactor and only introduce secondary air above the cap. The cap effectively seals the reactor chamber, preventing any secondary air from entering. This creates something of a hybrid between a TLUD and a Retort: a TLUD with a a bit of Retort flavor. 

I do the much the same, but do not use the 80 holes in their design for the burner plate. My solid burner plate is sized to allow for a gap between the wall of the reactor chamber and the edge of the plate. Thus the gases emerge from the reactor via this gap at the edge. They can thus only meet secondary air above the gap. Secondary air is thus prevented from entering the pyrolysis chamber - as per Bolinio and Olivier. 

<mime-attachment> 
Bottom view of primary air system - now 5/64 of an inch holes. 

<mime-attachment> 

Top view showing the support brackets. 
I no longer use the washers and now rotate the brackets slightly to form fingers to support the burner plate. 

This reactor can is the only part of the Rim Fire iCan that should be made of high temperature stainless. 

<mime-attachment> 

Burner plate in place. The gap is slightly below the rim of the can. 
The notch is not required or desired. It is an artifact. 
I will be trying a slightly larger plate to see if the gap can be narrowed some. 

<mime-attachment> 

Detail of the above. 

I hope this answers your questions. 

Regards, 

Jock 

Jonathan P Gill 
Peacham, VT. 
jg45 at icloud.com 

Extract CO2 from the atmosphere. 

On May 5, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Paul Anderson < psanders at ilstu.edu > wrote: 

<blockquote>

Jock, 

I did not understand 
<blockquote>
Not having any secondary air introduced into the pyrolysis chamber is brilliant. I wish I had thought of it 

Please explain, or re-send how you explained it before. 

Paul 
Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com 
</blockquote>

</blockquote>
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</blockquote>

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