[Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves

Tue May 28 11:56:38 CDT 2013

Dear Ron, Crispin, et al

Good to hear from you after all these years.

Ron, last time we were together, I believe we were in a favela of Managua
measuring IAP, while Bill Clinton was literaly flying over our heads with
his helicopter  visiting Nicaragua after hurricane Mitch.

Yes Proleña Nicaragua is very much active, although I am not involved
anymore. Visit them at http://prolenaecofogon.org/

I have never stopped working with stoves, but always in the background,
even if I was busy with something else.

Belo Horizonte is my home town, but I am here because to make a living out
of stoves, here is a good place to be since middle class people in southern
Brazil likes to cook on woodstoves for recreational reasons (weekends and
holidays with family and friends). Due to that, our company Ecofogão can
focus on two market segments, 1) the middle class who can pay US$ 500 for
an stove and sustain the company, and 2) the poor from the northeast who
need a cheaper stove model, and for whom we are working hard with NGOs and
local governments to develop that market.

The plancha stove you saw in our website was first designed by Proleña in
Managua with the big help from Larry Winiarsky around the year 2000, and
here in Brazil it has been very well accepted since people want ovens.
 Adding water heater was easier, as traditionally rural homes always uses
hot water from woodstoves, and one can buy the accessories in the hardware
stores, like coil, pipes and hot water tanks for stoves.

One additional usage is space heating, since it is a quite clean stove for
indoors. Our clients use it in cool areas of southern Brazil to keep the
kitchen and house warm.  I have one myself at a mountain house, which cook,
bake, heat the water for shower and kitchen, and moreover warn our house,
all tasks with a maximun consumption of just 1.3 kg of wood per hour.

This stove is now being sold to families who lives in apartments as well.
 Some modern condos in southern Brazil are now coming with a central
chimney for charcoal barbecue stoves (churrasco).  Some people instead of
barbecue stove prefers a woodstove, and so they replace it with our
Ecofogão and connect it to the central chimney, which works very well.
 This is a new market segment.

While I was at the World Bank (actually ESMAP), upper management was not
interested on cook stoves at that time.  Now the tide has changed, and
seems that The World Bank is doing more on this front.

Ecofogão is partnered with GACC, and we will put their logo in our website
soon.

As for charcoal stoves in Brazil,  it has not been developed as yet.
 Millions of families uses it for cooking in the north, but traditional
less efficient models.   Char-making stoves have not been explored yet,
However we aim to develop a model for that market in the near future.

Our path to develop a middle class wood stove was a business strategy to
take advantage of the recreational market, and sustain the business.  The
only donation we have received was from Trees, Water and People who
supprted us during our first year (2004), but other than that we have
sustained ourselves only through sales, which has been a long and difficult
path.

Best

Rogério

2013/5/27 <rongretlarson at comcast.net>

> Rogerio,  cc stove list
>
>     Very wonderful site and set of different models!   Congratulations on
> their development.
>
> Since you have been in (but sometimes out of) the stove business about as
> long as anyone on this list perhaps you can answer a few questions.
>
>    1.  Is there still a Pro Lena activity in Managua - and are you also
> involved there?
>
>    2.  Did you grow up in Belo Horizonte - MG, or are there other reasons
> for that location?
>
>    3.  The short video of you explaining the stove while cooking had 8
> different activities (5 pots, two trays in oven, and hot water) going on.
> Typcally we hear that the plancha type stoves are not so efficient, but
> this looks like a world record for compactness of activities.  Can you
> explain a bit more on your rationale for gong to the design you
> demonstrated.
>
>    4.  You spent some time at the World Bank.  Can you tell a little of
> any stove-related experiences there?
>
>     5.  Brazil (along the Amazon) being the home of Terra Preta, we who
> are interested in carbon sequestration are hoping to hear more from Brazil
> on charcoal-making stoves.  What do you hear about Brazilians looking for
> char-making stoves?
>
>    6.   You show PCIA, but not GACC on your website, and we didn't see you
> in Phnom Penh.  Will you be active in GACC?
>
>    7.   Your note below to Paul O was very positive - and the video was
> excellent.  Your stoves look very well designed and made.  Any lessons or
> negatives to report about the path you have been on for many years - so as
> to help others on this list?
>
> Ron
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com>
> *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 7:48:19 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>
>
> Paul,
>
> We are already installing Ecostoves powered by rocket stoves into middle
> class homes, as pictured (http://www.ecofogao.com.br/index.php?id=29),
> and we hope one day TLUD will be able to enter this same market.  We are
> waiting for the technology to mature a bit more, to introduce Ecostoves
> powered by TLUD for middle class, who can pay easily US$ 200+ for such
> stove.
>
> Paul Anderson was here in 2004 trying to develop a combined stove TLUD and
> Rocket stove, but at that time it was not practical to use it yet.
>
> Rogério
>
> 2013/5/26 Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>
>> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget,
>> to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich
>> people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our
>> big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of
>> the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made
>> of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about
>> three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3
>> kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to
>> match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost
>> more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that
>> would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable
>> biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos,
>> Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>>
>> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
>> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
>> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
>>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised
>>> to go commercial big time. They seem  to work beautifully,  are
>>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they
>>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature
>>> exist.
>>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
>>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove
>>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered
>>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
>>> a major hurdle.
>>>
>>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>>>
>>> Michael N Trevor
>>> Marshall Islands
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
>>> expertise?
>>>
>>> Dear all,   This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>>> message.
>>>
>>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves.   I am working on all
>>> four of them.
>>>
>>> 1.  Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>>>
>>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
>>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any
>>> significant segment of the population.   We need some documentation that xx
>>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried
>>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their
>>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
>>> each few months.    Comments from users should be reported.
>>>
>>> Start small, and do it well.   The money for the bigger studies will
>>> follow success with the small numbers.    This is NOT about sales.   This
>>> is about sustained usage.
>>>
>>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
>>> stove, but no results to report at this time.    Is anyone else doing such
>>> studies?
>>>
>>> 2.  Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves.  Some TLUD have had major
>>> success.   And others "suck".   Which ones and why?   We seek data from the
>>> stove testing centers.   We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
>>> coming 3 months.
>>>
>>> 3.  Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
>>> with excellent functioning.   The response must be credible for numbers of
>>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year.   20 tinsmiths seated in a
>>> factory is not sufficient proof.   Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality.   I do not doubt
>>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
>>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
>>> not in hand.
>>>
>>> 4.  Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
>>> functional about emissions and efficiencies.    I am working on this and I
>>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
>>> stoves are a focal issue.
>>>
>>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the ones
>>> with fans like Ron is discussing.   When they become available, that will
>>> be wonderful.  But then such stoves will still need to be considered
>>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above.   They might be the breakthrough for
>>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD  aka "Dr TLUD"
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   Skype: paultlud  Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
>>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
>>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>>>
>>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
>>>
>>> Paul A and Ron,
>>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
>>> "belivers" and start from there.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Otto
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
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