[Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
Paul Olivier
paul.olivier at esrla.com
Wed May 29 05:47:07 CDT 2013
Art,
What you are saying here is really great, and is certainly worth repeating:
*Propane is a prepared fuel. People are buying it. If we can build the
distribution system there is a place for pellets. These stoves will allow
us to gain entry into the much larger urban and peri-urban markets where
people are sliding back down the "fuel ladder" due to rising energy costs.*
Here in Vietnam, thousands of people are sliding down the fuel ladder each
and every day.
Paul
On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Art Donnelly <art.donnelly at seachar.org>wrote:
> Hi all,
> I wish I was at the point where I could share published data with you on
> stove use by participants in the Estufa Finca-Talamanca project. We started
> distribution in March of 2012 and added and our last group in January 2013
> I hope to have that together by Stove Camp. However count me among the
> "believers".
> The ND TLUD Estufa Finca has been and continues to be a hit in the
> Talamanca de Costa Rica. We have passed the 0ne year mark for the 1st group
> of cooks to get their new biochar producing stoves. We are getting back two
> "complaints": lack of a longevity and a better multiple pot cook-top
> option. However our adoption rate is well-over 50% and although the 110
> families in who participated in the year long EF program received their
> stoves for the US equivalent of $10. We have been and still are selling the
> same stoves to others in this same area for approx. $40 each. We have sold
> over 60 units at this retail price.
> Like most projects out there, we are chronically under funded so that
> limited our ability to bring more communities into the Biochar "buy-back"
> program for stove users. Working with a 32 house hold sub-set we collected
> over 3 tons of biochar. Most of that is now back in the ground.
> Approximately 2/3 of that has gone into research plots, demonstration
> gardens, etc., but we have sold over a ton.
> As some of you know the E.F. does not require a prepared fuel. It is
> essentially a "stick-wood" stove. However I believe that in order to
> achieve real success and put this effort on commercially sustainable legs
> we need a stove like Paul Olivers.
> Propane is a prepared fuel. People are buying it. If we can build the
> distribution system there is a place for pellets. These stoves will allow
> us to gain entry into the much larger urban and peri-urban markets where
> people are sliding back down the "fuel ladder" due to rising energy costs.
> I want to add my voice to what Dr. TLUD, Paul Oliver, Otto , et al. are
> saying: there is a big, eager market for the very clean burning stoves we
> have and the biochar those stoves produce.
> If you do not believe me, I will put you in touch with the people using
> our stoves and the biochar they make. Can this scale up? Yes, if those of
> us in the pyrolysis stove community start working together on manufacturing
> strategies in order to give people a range of affordable, well designed,
> durable appliances.
>
> See you at Stove Camp!
> Art Donnelly
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:00 PM, <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Kevin)
>> 2. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Ron)
>> 3. Re: Bottom of the line smoke detector (Sarbagya R. Tuladhar)
>> 4. Differently shaped combustion chambers (Sarbagya R. Tuladhar)
>> 5. Re: Bottom of the line smoke detector (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> 6. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Kevin)
>> 7. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Dean Still)
>> 8. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Rogerio carneiro de miranda)
>> 9. Re: Advancement of "better" stoves (Richard Stanley)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 23:08:51 -0300
>> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID: <FA24E1FEA63D441D879C63E17A1F6CF0 at usera594fda0bf>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear Ron
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>>
>>
>> Dean:
>>
>> I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
>> "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
>> words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
>> negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>>
>> # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>>
>> #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
>> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
>> are not "carbon negative"?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the
>> global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
>> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
>> with biochar
>>
>> I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
>>
>> Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
>> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>> Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2
>> to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
>> the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
>>
>>
>> Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
>> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
>> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
>> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
>> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
>> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
>> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
>> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
>> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
>> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
>> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>>
>> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we
>> expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
>> except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>>
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>>
>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio,
>> Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
>> poised to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition
>> they are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
>> manufature exist.
>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these
>> stoves are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
>> stove could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered
>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a
>> major hurdle.
>>
>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>> Marshall Islands
>>
>> .
>>
>> From: Paul Anderson
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Cc: Otto Formo
>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>> Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re:
>> fan expertise?
>>
>>
>> Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>> message.
>>
>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all
>> four of them.
>>
>> 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>>
>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when
>> available and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove
>> users in any significant segment of the population. We need some
>> documentation that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households
>> that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of
>> the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked
>> again and again each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>>
>> Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies
>> will follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales.
>> This is about sustained usage.
>>
>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad
>> TLUD stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing
>> such studies?
>>
>> 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the
>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
>> coming 3 months.
>>
>> 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD
>> stoves with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for
>> numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated
>> in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt
>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
>> not in hand.
>>
>> 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are
>> still functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this
>> and I hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where
>> TLUD stoves are a focal issue.
>>
>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as
>> the ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available,
>> that will be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be
>> considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the
>> breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.comOn 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try
>> to convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop
>> more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>>
>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production,
>> handeling etc.
>>
>> Paul A and Ron,
>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a
>> group of "belivers" and start from there.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Otto
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
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>>
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>> web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
>> 05/25/13
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
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>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 21:37:10 -0600
>> From: Ron <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID: <8EA00628-BDCE-4F62-85FD-FA0862BD411B at comcast.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> I presume this question is because of my statement below about "
>> ...the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>>
>> My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this
>> list at least a dozen times - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson. Look
>> up what is said about the Philips stove.
>>
>> I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
>> for a real cite?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Ron
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> > Dean:
>> >
>> > I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
>> "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
>> words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
>> negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>> >
>> > # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>> >
>> > #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
>> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
>> are not "carbon negative"?
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Kevin
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the
>> global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
>> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
>> with biochar
>> >
>> > I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
>> >
>> > Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
>> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2
>> to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
>> the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
>> >
>> > Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
>> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
>> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
>> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
>> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
>> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
>> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
>> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
>> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
>> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
>> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>> >
>> > Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
>> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except,
>> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>> >
>> > Paul Olivier
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>> > I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised
>> to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are physically
>> good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they are
>> located in places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature exist.
>> > Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove
>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00
>> $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No
>> matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little
>> appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a major hurdle.
>> >
>> > Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>> >
>> > Michael N Trevor
>> > Marshall Islands
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > From: Paul Anderson
>> > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> > Cc: Otto Formo
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>> > Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
>> expertise?
>> >
>> > Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>> message.
>> >
>> > I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all
>> four of them.
>> >
>> > 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>> >
>> > We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any
>> significant segment of the population. We need some documentation that xx
>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried
>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their
>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again
>> each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>> >
>> > Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
>> follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales. This
>> is about sustained usage.
>> >
>> > We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
>> stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing such
>> studies?
>> >
>> > 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the
>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
>> coming 3 months.
>> >
>> > 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
>> with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for numbers of
>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a
>> factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt
>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
>> not in hand.
>> >
>> > 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still
>> functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I
>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
>> stoves are a focal issue.
>> >
>> > Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the
>> ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that
>> will be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered
>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough for
>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> > Website: www.drtlud.com
>> > On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
>> convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop
>> more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>> >
>> > What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>> > Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc.
>> >
>> > Paul A and Ron,
>> > If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of
>> "belivers" and start from there.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Otto
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
>> 05/25/13
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> > Dalat
>> > Vietnam
>> >
>> > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> > Skype address: Xpolivier
>> > http://www.esrla.com/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
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>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130527/ccfd9651/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 09:40:49 +0530
>> From: "Sarbagya R. Tuladhar" <sarbagya007 at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Bottom of the line smoke detector
>> Message-ID: <29BAC859-0FC7-43FF-8B5F-2F0956F5FAD5 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hi Crispin,
>>
>> Would this Bacharach Smoke Detector work for measuring the PM emissions
>> from a stove similar to using a PM gravimetric system ? Not possible to
>> obtain real time data from it, I assume.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Sarbagya
>>
>> On 27/05/2013, at 10:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Friends
>> >
>> > If you want to have a very simple PM detector the Bacharach Smoke
>> Detector is one that may suit your budget.
>> >
>> > It uses a vacuum cylinder with hand pump and you compare the darkness
>> of the spots on a filter paper with a chart. It turns out the blackness of
>> the spot is a pretty good indicator of the clack carbon content. This is
>> being studied by Berkeley, actually, using photos of filters.
>> >
>> > http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf
>> >
>> > That is the place. Look down on the left side.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Crispin
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20130528/d2f2c74c/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:06:27 +0530
>> From: "Sarbagya R. Tuladhar" <sarbagya007 at gmail.com>
>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: [Stoves] Differently shaped combustion chambers
>> Message-ID: <91057EB0-677D-453C-91CD-C2DA8B12E65B at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Hello Stovers,
>>
>> Can anyone direct me to some document relating to testing done on
>> different shaped combustion chambers ? How does it effect the performance ?
>> Conical, hexagonal etc
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Sarbagya Tuladhar
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:33:18 +0800
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Bottom of the line smoke detector
>> Message-ID: <078301ce5b97$2bf3cb70$83db6250$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Sarbagya
>>
>>
>>
>> The device is only accurate (OK, reasonably good guess) for indoor air
>> because unless you know the dilution of the gas sample, you don't really
>> know how much PM was generated.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you wanted to measure the PM from a stove by pulling a sample (10
>> pumps I
>> think on the handle) from the gap between a stove body and pot you can get
>> some idea of the difference between two similar stoves, however as you are
>> not measuring the excess air so you don't know how diluted it is.
>>
>>
>>
>> What it is really good for is giving an indication of indoor air quality
>> at
>> a very low cost. I have used them in the past to do that. It was really
>> clear, for example, that the PM in indoor air in kitchens in the eastern
>> lowveld Swaziland varied a great deal, in two identifiable clusters. There
>> were low PM ones and really high PM ones. Looking at the data it became
>> clear that all the high PM kitchens were in homesteads occupied by
>> Mozambiquean immigrants who build a very different structures from ethnic
>> Swazis.
>>
>>
>>
>> As always, when you have nothing, half a loaf is better than no bread.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Crispin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Would this Bacharach Smoke Detector work for measuring the PM emissions
>> from
>> a stove similar to using a PM gravimetric system ? Not possible to obtain
>> real time data from it, I assume.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Sarbagya
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27/05/2013, at 10:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Friends
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want to have a very simple PM detector the Bacharach Smoke Detector
>> is one that may suit your budget.
>>
>>
>>
>> It uses a vacuum cylinder with hand pump and you compare the darkness of
>> the
>> spots on a filter paper with a chart. It turns out the blackness of the
>> spot is a pretty good indicator of the clack carbon content. This is being
>> studied by Berkeley, actually, using photos of filters.
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf>
>> http://www.uno.co.jp/seihin_info/catalogue/11_environmental/0479.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> That is the place. Look down on the left side.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> <
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylist
>> s.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists
>> .org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> <http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:32:47 -0300
>> From: "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID: <FF15BF1E18C84453951EF103B350BD94 at usera594fda0bf>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Ron
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ron
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> I presume this question is because of my statement below about "
>> ...the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>>
>> # There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for
>> mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to attempt to
>> change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are
>> clear:
>> "# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>> #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
>> "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
>> are not "carbon negative"?"
>> Please answer them.
>>
>>
>> My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this
>> list at least a dozen times
>>
>> # That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is
>> true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full
>> combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove test
>> data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can
>> present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim.
>>
>> - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
>>
>> # I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very
>> helpful.
>>
>> Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
>> # You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you
>> to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then
>> your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove
>> have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to see
>> the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves List,
>> to support your claim.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
>> for a real cite?
>>
>> # Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It
>> would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion here.
>>
>> # Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking
>> for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove
>> compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" , ie,
>> "a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Ron
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>>
>>
>> Dean:
>>
>> I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove
>> development "business" because we want messages like yours below to also
>> include the words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be
>> carbon negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>>
>> # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?
>>
>> #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that
>> such "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves
>> which are not "carbon negative"?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention
>> the global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
>> altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come
>> with biochar
>>
>> I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
>>
>> Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
>> science of (especially clean) stove operation.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: "Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>> Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds
>> CO2 to the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon
>> neutral, the biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health,
>> etc.
>>
>>
>> Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <
>> paul.olivier at esrla.com> wrote:
>>
>> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting
>> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
>> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power
>> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
>> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
>> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
>> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
>> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful
>> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a
>> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London
>> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>>
>> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we
>> expect poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
>> except, perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>>
>>
>> Paul Olivier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr
>> Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could
>> easily be poised to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully,
>> are physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
>> addition they are located in places where industrial and mechanical means
>> of manufature exist.
>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these
>> stoves are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
>> stove could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and hammered
>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is a
>> major hurdle.
>>
>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>>
>> Michael N Trevor
>> Marshall Islands
>>
>> .
>>
>> From: Paul Anderson
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> Cc: Otto Formo
>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>> Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves
>> Re: fan expertise?
>>
>>
>> Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to
>> Otto's message.
>>
>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all
>> four of them.
>>
>> 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves
>> (at reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>>
>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when
>> available and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove
>> users in any significant segment of the population. We need some
>> documentation that xx number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households
>> that seriously tried TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of
>> the time for their cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked
>> again and again each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>>
>> Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger
>> studies will follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about
>> sales. This is about sustained usage.
>>
>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad
>> TLUD stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing
>> such studies?
>>
>> 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection
>> about emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the
>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the
>> coming 3 months.
>>
>> 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of
>> TLUD stoves with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for
>> numbers of many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated
>> in a factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt
>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with
>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still
>> not in hand.
>>
>> 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that
>> are still functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on
>> this and I hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho
>> where TLUD stoves are a focal issue.
>>
>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such
>> as the ones with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available,
>> that will be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be
>> considered regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the
>> breakthrough for gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.comOn 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to
>> try to convince them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will
>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>>
>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production,
>> handeling etc.
>>
>> Paul A and Ron,
>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then
>> create a group of "belivers" and start from there.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Otto
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
>> our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release
>> Date: 05/25/13
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> Dalat
>> Vietnam
>>
>> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> http://www.esrla.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
>> web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 08:26:29 -0700
>> From: Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID:
>> <CA+tShZvUi3n_Zgq9mi7W5oiAAPOWJru3=
>> 419OC1dD3GibHoe-w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> [image: Inline image 1]
>> [image: Inline image 2]
>> O[image: Inline image 3]n Tue, M[image: Inline image 4]ay [image: Inline
>> image 5]28, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Kevin <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>>
>> > **
>> > Dear Ron
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* Ron <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 28, 2013 12:37 AM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> > Kevin
>> >
>> > I presume this question is because of my statement below about "
>> ...the
>> > need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
>> >
>> > *# There is no need to assume anything. There is no need for
>> > mis-direction. There is no need for evasion. There is no need to
>> attempt to
>> > change a "stoves Issue" into a "climate change issue."My questions are
>> > clear:*
>> > *"# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
>> > *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
>> > "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
>> > are not "carbon negative"?"*
>> > *Please answer them.*
>> >
>> > My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this
>> > list at least a dozen times
>> >
>> > *# That is an important claim, with significant consequences, if it is
>> > true. Are you saying that TLUD's are fundamentally cleaner than "full
>> > combustion stoves? Have you ever provided factual and credible stove
>> test
>> > data that to support your statement? If you do have, and if you can
>> > present, such data, it will go a long way to support your claim. *
>> > **
>> > - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson.
>> >
>> > *# I am asking you, but equivalent answers from them would also be very
>> > helpful.*
>> >
>> > Look up what is said about the Philips stove.
>> >
>> > *# You made a bold and important claim. and in Science, it is up to you
>> > to prove that you are right. If you can't prove that you are right, then
>> > your "bold and important claim" is irresponsible. Does the Philips stove
>> > have cleaner combustion than "full combustion stoves"? I would like to
>> see
>> > the data and test protocol employed. Please provide it to the Stoves
>> List,
>> > to support your claim.*
>> >
>> >
>> > I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request
>> > for a real cite?
>> >
>> > *# Your reference to a "cite" was in a discussion on another List. It
>> > would not be advantageous to the stoves List to bring that discussion
>> here.
>> > *
>> > **
>> > *# Please provide test data, to support your claim. I would be looking
>> > for an "apples and apples comparison", ie, a "good full combustion stove
>> > compared with a good TLUD", and not an "apples and lemons comparison" ,
>> ie,
>> > *
>> > *"a 3-stone fire compared with a good TLUD"*
>> > **
>> > *Kevin*
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Ron
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> > Dean:
>> >
>> > I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development
>> > "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the
>> > words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon
>> > negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion.
>> >
>> > *# 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about?*
>> >
>> > *#2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such
>> > "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which
>> > are not "carbon negative"?*
>> > **
>> > *Thanks.*
>> > **
>> > *Kevin*
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the
>> > global need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels
>> > altogether, and other benefits like low or negative annual cost that
>> come
>> > with biochar
>> >
>> > I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't.
>> >
>> > Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the
>> science
>> > of (especially clean) stove operation.
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From: *"Dean Still" <deankstill at gmail.com>
>> > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM
>> > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2
>> to
>> > the atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral,
>> the
>> > biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc.
>> >
>> > Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> >> forget, to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens.
>> Getting
>> >> rich people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one
>> of
>> >> our big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the
>> power
>> >> of the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in
>> height;
>> >> made of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more
>> than
>> >> about three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting
>> out 2
>> >> to 3 kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> >> contoured to match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove
>> >> need not cost more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a
>> beautiful
>> >> blue flame that would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would
>> produce a
>> >> valuable biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in
>> London
>> >> or Laos, Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>> >>
>> >> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
>> >> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
>> except,
>> >> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>> >>
>> >> Paul Olivier
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> **
>> >>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
>> >>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
>> poised
>> >>> to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
>> >>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
>> addition they
>> >>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
>> manufature
>> >>> exist.
>> >>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
>> >>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
>> stove
>> >>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>> >>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>> >>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and
>> hammered
>> >>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
>> >>> a major hurdle.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>> >>>
>> >>> Michael N Trevor
>> >>> Marshall Islands
>> >>>
>> >>> .
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>> >>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
>> >>> expertise?
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>> >>> message.
>> >>>
>> >>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>> >>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working
>> on all
>> >>> four of them.
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>> >>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>> >>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>> >>>
>> >>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
>> >>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users
>> in any
>> >>> significant segment of the population. We need some documentation
>> that xx
>> >>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously
>> tried
>> >>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for
>> their
>> >>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and
>> again
>> >>> each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>> >>>
>> >>> Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
>> >>> follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales.
>> This
>> >>> is about sustained usage.
>> >>>
>> >>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
>> >>> stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing
>> such
>> >>> studies?
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>> >>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>> >>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data
>> from the
>> >>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps
>> in the
>> >>> coming 3 months.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
>> >>> with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for
>> numbers of
>> >>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a
>> >>> factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>> >>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not
>> doubt
>> >>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but
>> with
>> >>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is
>> still
>> >>> not in hand.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are
>> still
>> >>> functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this
>> and I
>> >>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
>> >>> stoves are a focal issue.
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the
>> ones
>> >>> with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that
>> will
>> >>> be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered
>> >>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough
>> for
>> >>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>> >>>
>> >>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Ron
>> >>>
>> >>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
>> >>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
>> >>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>> >>>
>> >>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>> >>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling
>> etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul A and Ron,
>> >>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group
>> of
>> >>> "belivers" and start from there.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks.
>> >>>
>> >>> Otto
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
>> 05/25/13
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> >> Dalat
>> >> Vietnam
>> >>
>> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> >> http://www.esrla.com/
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Stoves mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stoves mailing list
>> >
>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >
>> >
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >
>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:56:38 -0300
>> From: Rogerio carneiro de miranda <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com>
>> To: rongretlarson at comcast.net
>> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID:
>> <CADB_T=it+9rJ3xtcKdTWKxc4X-rzq1XTxq=zo8W6=
>> bYi_v5uxQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Ron, Crispin, et al
>>
>> Good to hear from you after all these years.
>>
>> Ron, last time we were together, I believe we were in a favela of Managua
>> measuring IAP, while Bill Clinton was literaly flying over our heads with
>> his helicopter visiting Nicaragua after hurricane Mitch.
>>
>> Yes Prole?a Nicaragua is very much active, although I am not involved
>> anymore. Visit them at http://prolenaecofogon.org/
>>
>> I have never stopped working with stoves, but always in the background,
>> even if I was busy with something else.
>>
>> Belo Horizonte is my home town, but I am here because to make a living out
>> of stoves, here is a good place to be since middle class people in
>> southern
>> Brazil likes to cook on woodstoves for recreational reasons (weekends and
>> holidays with family and friends). Due to that, our company Ecofog?o can
>> focus on two market segments, 1) the middle class who can pay US$ 500 for
>> an stove and sustain the company, and 2) the poor from the northeast who
>> need a cheaper stove model, and for whom we are working hard with NGOs and
>> local governments to develop that market.
>>
>> The plancha stove you saw in our website was first designed by Prole?a in
>> Managua with the big help from Larry Winiarsky around the year 2000, and
>> here in Brazil it has been very well accepted since people want ovens.
>> Adding water heater was easier, as traditionally rural homes always uses
>> hot water from woodstoves, and one can buy the accessories in the hardware
>> stores, like coil, pipes and hot water tanks for stoves.
>>
>> One additional usage is space heating, since it is a quite clean stove for
>> indoors. Our clients use it in cool areas of southern Brazil to keep the
>> kitchen and house warm. I have one myself at a mountain house, which
>> cook,
>> bake, heat the water for shower and kitchen, and moreover warn our house,
>> all tasks with a maximun consumption of just 1.3 kg of wood per hour.
>>
>> This stove is now being sold to families who lives in apartments as well.
>> Some modern condos in southern Brazil are now coming with a central
>> chimney for charcoal barbecue stoves (churrasco). Some people instead of
>> barbecue stove prefers a woodstove, and so they replace it with our
>> Ecofog?o and connect it to the central chimney, which works very well.
>> This is a new market segment.
>>
>> While I was at the World Bank (actually ESMAP), upper management was not
>> interested on cook stoves at that time. Now the tide has changed, and
>> seems that The World Bank is doing more on this front.
>>
>> Ecofog?o is partnered with GACC, and we will put their logo in our website
>> soon.
>>
>> As for charcoal stoves in Brazil, it has not been developed as yet.
>> Millions of families uses it for cooking in the north, but traditional
>> less efficient models. Char-making stoves have not been explored yet,
>> However we aim to develop a model for that market in the near future.
>>
>> Our path to develop a middle class wood stove was a business strategy to
>> take advantage of the recreational market, and sustain the business. The
>> only donation we have received was from Trees, Water and People who
>> supprted us during our first year (2004), but other than that we have
>> sustained ourselves only through sales, which has been a long and
>> difficult
>> path.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Rog?rio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/5/27 <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>>
>> > Rogerio, cc stove list
>> >
>> > Very wonderful site and set of different models! Congratulations
>> on
>> > their development.
>> >
>> > Since you have been in (but sometimes out of) the stove business about
>> as
>> > long as anyone on this list perhaps you can answer a few questions.
>> >
>> > 1. Is there still a Pro Lena activity in Managua - and are you also
>> > involved there?
>> >
>> > 2. Did you grow up in Belo Horizonte - MG, or are there other
>> reasons
>> > for that location?
>> >
>> > 3. The short video of you explaining the stove while cooking had 8
>> > different activities (5 pots, two trays in oven, and hot water) going
>> on.
>> > Typcally we hear that the plancha type stoves are not so efficient, but
>> > this looks like a world record for compactness of activities. Can you
>> > explain a bit more on your rationale for gong to the design you
>> > demonstrated.
>> >
>> > 4. You spent some time at the World Bank. Can you tell a little of
>> > any stove-related experiences there?
>> >
>> > 5. Brazil (along the Amazon) being the home of Terra Preta, we who
>> > are interested in carbon sequestration are hoping to hear more from
>> Brazil
>> > on charcoal-making stoves. What do you hear about Brazilians looking
>> for
>> > char-making stoves?
>> >
>> > 6. You show PCIA, but not GACC on your website, and we didn't see
>> you
>> > in Phnom Penh. Will you be active in GACC?
>> >
>> > 7. Your note below to Paul O was very positive - and the video was
>> > excellent. Your stoves look very well designed and made. Any lessons
>> or
>> > negatives to report about the path you have been on for many years - so
>> as
>> > to help others on this list?
>> >
>> > Ron
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From: *"Rogerio carneiro de miranda" <carneirodemiranda at gmail.com>
>> > *To: *"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <
>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> > *Sent: *Monday, May 27, 2013 7:48:19 AM
>> > *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > We are already installing Ecostoves powered by rocket stoves into middle
>> > class homes, as pictured (http://www.ecofogao.com.br/index.php?id=29),
>> > and we hope one day TLUD will be able to enter this same market. We are
>> > waiting for the technology to mature a bit more, to introduce Ecostoves
>> > powered by TLUD for middle class, who can pay easily US$ 200+ for such
>> > stove.
>> >
>> > Paul Anderson was here in 2004 trying to develop a combined stove TLUD
>> and
>> > Rocket stove, but at that time it was not practical to use it yet.
>> >
>> > Rog?rio
>> >
>> > 2013/5/26 Paul Olivier <paul.olivier at esrla.com>
>> >
>> >> Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't
>> forget,
>> >> to design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich
>> >> people in developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of
>> our
>> >> big priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the
>> power of
>> >> the tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height;
>> made
>> >> of high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than
>> about
>> >> three or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2
>> to 3
>> >> kW of heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly
>> contoured to
>> >> match in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not
>> cost
>> >> more than $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame
>> that
>> >> would rival that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable
>> >> biochar for farms and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or
>> Laos,
>> >> Boston or Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike.
>> >>
>> >> Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect
>> >> poor people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so,
>> except,
>> >> perhaps, on an occasional camping trip?
>> >>
>> >> Paul Olivier
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <mtrevor at ntamar.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> **
>> >>> I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr.
>> >>> Nurhuda and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be
>> poised
>> >>> to go commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are
>> >>> physically good looking and are close to good fuel sources. In
>> addition they
>> >>> are located in places where industrial and mechanical means of
>> manufature
>> >>> exist.
>> >>> Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves
>> >>> are relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a
>> stove
>> >>> could be worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay
>> >>> $200.00 $300 or $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond
>> >>> practicality. No matter what efforts are expended tincanium and
>> hammered
>> >>> tin has little appeal here. In these day of ipads and iphones style is
>> >>> a major hurdle.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth.
>> >>>
>> >>> Michael N Trevor
>> >>> Marshall Islands
>> >>>
>> >>> .
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> >>> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> >>> *Cc:* Otto Formo <terra-matricula at hotmail.com>
>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM
>> >>> *Subject:* [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan
>> >>> expertise?
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's
>> >>> message.
>> >>>
>> >>> I see four things that will greatly advance the position of
>> >>> micro-gasifier stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working
>> on all
>> >>> four of them.
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at
>> >>> reasonable price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable
>> >>> supply chain for appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) :
>> >>>
>> >>> We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available
>> >>> and with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users
>> in any
>> >>> significant segment of the population. We need some documentation
>> that xx
>> >>> number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously
>> tried
>> >>> TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for
>> their
>> >>> cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and
>> again
>> >>> each few months. Comments from users should be reported.
>> >>>
>> >>> Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will
>> >>> follow success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales.
>> This
>> >>> is about sustained usage.
>> >>>
>> >>> We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD
>> >>> stove, but no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing
>> such
>> >>> studies?
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about
>> >>> emissions and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major
>> >>> success. And others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data
>> from the
>> >>> stove testing centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps
>> in the
>> >>> coming 3 months.
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves
>> >>> with excellent functioning. The response must be credible for
>> numbers of
>> >>> many 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a
>> >>> factory is not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal
>> >>> stamping can produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not
>> doubt
>> >>> that capacity worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but
>> with
>> >>> the goal of creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is
>> still
>> >>> not in hand.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are
>> still
>> >>> functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this
>> and I
>> >>> hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD
>> >>> stoves are a focal issue.
>> >>>
>> >>> Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the
>> ones
>> >>> with fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that
>> will
>> >>> be wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered
>> >>> regarding # 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough
>> for
>> >>> gaining acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever.
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
>> >>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> >>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>> >>>
>> >>> On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Ron
>> >>>
>> >>> I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to
>> >>> convince them , that *gasifing of biomass *are here to BE and will
>> >>> develop more rapidly, than anyone ever belived.
>> >>>
>> >>> What about the issue of biomass as fuel?
>> >>> Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling
>> etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Paul A and Ron,
>> >>> If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group
>> of
>> >>> "belivers" and start from there.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks.
>> >>>
>> >>> Otto
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> >>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> No virus found in this message.
>> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date:
>> 05/25/13
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Stoves mailing list
>> >>>
>> >>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>>
>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Paul A. Olivier PhD
>> >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
>> >> Dalat
>> >> Vietnam
>> >>
>> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
>> >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
>> >> Skype address: Xpolivier
>> >> http://www.esrla.com/
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Stoves mailing list
>> >>
>> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>> >>
>> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> >>
>> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>> site:
>> >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> >
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:25:34 -0700
>> From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves
>> Message-ID: <35453EB5-5EDA-4FF6-BBB7-320B669184CD at legacyfound.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Amigos of the next best stove idea?
>>
>> The recent ongoing multi-sourced probe of Ron Larsen's stove, seems like
>> a debate about the "open share" versus "private ownership" model eh ?
>>
>> A few thoughts on this based on what is happening with us as we go on now
>> 16 years of briquette technology development, training and extension.
>>
>> By virtue of broad exposure, you demonstrate "common knowledge". in some
>> cases "prior knowledge" of the invention (at least in part, as most all
>> "new ideas" are a result of someones refurmulation of their agglomerated
>> previous exposure eh ?)
>> So where does that leave one as "inventor" ? Anyone can eventually copy
>> you if not almost immediately do so.. What they cannot do is provide the
>> service support and the passion that you put into your idea?
>> Sometimes when we purchase something (quality, cost and performance being
>> near equal), we are buying the owner's service and love of it as well. I do
>> not think that these qulities can be codified and replicated on a 3d
>> printer much less patented. The ideas 'protection' becomes the owner's own
>> reputation for character and quality of support.
>>
>> We follow this model and try to encourage our fellow briquetters to do
>> the same with their own ideas.. In this form as it is emerging, one would
>> sell locally, make and sell instructional manuals anywhere and but agree
>> to share their "ideas" globally. The security is ironically in the
>> exchange? We have had dozens of copycats and self styled individuals,
>> students, missionares, and institutional inventors of briquetting pop up
>> all over the place but few have the support network to backstop the would
>> be buyer?
>> MAybe they develop it maybe not?If they do a good job then we try to link
>> to them and build it. Meanwhile global exposure to the concept --hence
>> awareness and market interest grows.. They can become your best advertisers
>> !
>>
>> Peace love and joy ---with a full stomach.
>>
>> Richard Stanley
>> www.legacyfound.org
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 33, Issue 33
>> **************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Art Donnelly
> President SeaChar.Org
> US Director, The Farm Stove Project
> Proyecto Estufa Finca
>
> <http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0>
> "SeaChar.Org...positive tools for carbon negative living"
>
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>
--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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