[Stoves] NE Biochar takes the C-cake
Ronal W. Larson
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Fri Oct 4 07:32:55 CDT 2013
Bernhard and Crispin (later message citing $0.25/kg in Yohyakarta)
These sales price of char are helpful, and thanks. But it would be great if we could also get the price of wood in similar size amounts. Even more valuable would be the price per tonne or even per truckload (with weight of the load of course) of both. Same for pellets? Anecdotal will help.
To Bernhard: Can you say anything encouraging about solar cooker competitiveness in Nairobi?
Do you market any large unit like a Scheffler? I have not seen in print anywhere the use of a solar concentrator to make char, and using the pyrolysis gases for commercial cooking. Being exothermic above 300 C (??), one might be able to get char at even lower cost than with a TLUD (on a sunny day). Thinking income from both the gas and the char. Some other high value uses might be found, given the lack of nitrogen in the gas stream. Biogas is storable, maybe this could be also.
I have not thought this through, but it sounds like you might be knowledgeable on the combined solar-charcoal topic.
Ron
On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:46 PM, mueller-solartechnik at gmx.net wrote:
> Erich, Lanny,
> in Nairobi they sell nearly 1.5kgs charcoal for 70 Kenyan Shillings (KES). At the current rate of exchange one must pay approx. 52 US-Cents for one kg. This price was found last week. Just for your orientation.
>
> | Bernhard Müller
> | Mühlstraße 26
> | 65760 Eschborn
> | Allemagne - Germany - Deutschland
> | Fon +49 160 9498 9966
> | http://www.mueller-solartechnik.com
>
>
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 03. Oktober 2013 um 20:00 Uhr
>> Von: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> An: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Betreff: Stoves Digest, Vol 38, Issue 3
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: NE Biochar takes the C-cake (Lanny Henson)
>> 2. Re: Water heating fuel efficiency formula (ajheggie at gmail.com)
>> 3. Re: Water heating fuel efficiency formula (Ronal W. Larson)
>> 4. Re: Water heating fuel efficiency formula (Jock Gill)
>> 5. Jompy water heater deserves your consideration Re: Siemens
>> Empowering people award (Paul Anderson)
>> 6. Re: Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>> 7. Re: Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 17:48:48 -0400
>> From: "Lanny Henson" <lannych at bellsouth.net>
>> To: <biochar-production at yahoogroups.com>, "Discussion of biomass
>> cooking stoves" <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] NE Biochar takes the C-cake
>> Message-ID: <019ACB2A3B5E453CAF14453F5A884A7C at HP>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Erich,
>> I am impressed!! Wow!
>> I love the scene with fire that was amazing. Thanks of amusing me!
>> You may be missing out of on an opportunity to create microenterprise and jobs.
>> You could set up venders at flea markets and sell 50 LB bags of that char for $20 all day long! It is almost $1 a pound at the big box stores.
>> There are a lot of grilling and smoke roasting barbecue people that would love to buy it. If you were local I would buy some.
>> You could save the small stuff for biochar and use the money from sales of the larger pieces to expand and make more biochar.
>> This has been an idea on the back burner for years. If it works I may jump in.
>> Lanny
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Erich Knight
>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification ; stoves at bioenergylists.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 10:40 AM
>> Subject: [Stoves] NE Biochar takes the C-cake
>>
>>
>> Look where the Adam Retort has gone, from charcoal for cooking fuel to greenhouse heating and biochar production.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----
>>
>> New England Biochar takes the C-cake, and eats it too.
>>
>> Bob Wells is GooD Stuff himself.
>>
>> What a great set up they have. Open sheds for the reactors right next to the Greenhouses,
>>
>> Slick As ....ya know....well.... Biochar.
>>
>> Love the overly dramatic fiery explosive transformation for the moment of pyrolitic conversion.
>>
>> New England Biochar
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwNPtWff9QA
>>
>> See New England Biochar http://newenglandbiochar.org/
>>
>> Erich Knight
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 08:07:55 +0100
>> From: ajheggie at gmail.com
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> Message-ID: <t25q491i52prmoi94op5nak9bhh564gtst at 4ax.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> [Default] On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:41:32 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>> <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I need the formula or spread sheet, for fuel efficiency, for heating water,
>>> considering the moisture content of wood, and using red oak as fuel. Not a
>>> water boiling test with simmering, just a water heating test.
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>> What form do you want this to take?
>>
>> My guess is red oak will have a calorific content of around the 18.6
>> MJ per kilo average suggested for most biomass. When you burn it
>> completely it gives off CO2 and water. All the water, both the
>> original moisture content and the water formed from oxidising the
>> hydrogen atoms in the fuel, in the exhaust contains 2.3MJ of latent
>> heat and the sensible heat from the exhaust temperature. This heat in
>> water vapour and the sensible heat of the other exhaust gasses, mostly
>> nitrogen, any remaining oxygen from the excess air and CO2, is waste
>> heat, the other waste heat is the heat conducted, radiated and
>> convected from the stove body. The remainder, the usable heat is what
>> gets into the pot.
>>
>> The simplest conversion of the potential heat in the wood to usable
>> heat in the pot is to weigh the wood used, calculate its heat value
>> and measure the rise in temperature of the pot contents and calculate
>> the heat input. Divide the first by the second value and you have an
>> overall wood to pot efficiency as a first approximation.
>>
>> Beyond that you get into the realms of interminable arguments about
>> whether to allow for residual energy in any char left and how many
>> fairies can dance on a pin head.
>>
>> AJH
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 07:14:05 -0600
>> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Andrew Heggie <ajheggie at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> Message-ID: <29714967-9495-4F82-9A1D-0763F21ACCC7 at comcast.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Andrew: cc list and Lanny
>>
>> This is the first time I can recall seeing the number 2.3 MJ/kilo. This must be associated with some initial moisture?
>>
>> I think Lanny is looking for ways to do testing with wood of different moisture content. Doesn't he have to do some wood drying in an oven, measuring weight loss?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2013, at 1:07 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> [Default] On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:41:32 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>>> <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I need the formula or spread sheet, for fuel efficiency, for heating water,
>>>> considering the moisture content of wood, and using red oak as fuel. Not a
>>>> water boiling test with simmering, just a water heating test.
>>>
>>> Lanny
>>>
>>> What form do you want this to take?
>>>
>>> My guess is red oak will have a calorific content of around the 18.6
>>> MJ per kilo average suggested for most biomass. When you burn it
>>> completely it gives off CO2 and water. All the water, both the
>>> original moisture content and the water formed from oxidising the
>>> hydrogen atoms in the fuel, in the exhaust contains 2.3MJ of latent
>>> heat and the sensible heat from the exhaust temperature. This heat in
>>> water vapour and the sensible heat of the other exhaust gasses, mostly
>>> nitrogen, any remaining oxygen from the excess air and CO2, is waste
>>> heat, the other waste heat is the heat conducted, radiated and
>>> convected from the stove body. The remainder, the usable heat is what
>>> gets into the pot.
>>>
>>> The simplest conversion of the potential heat in the wood to usable
>>> heat in the pot is to weigh the wood used, calculate its heat value
>>> and measure the rise in temperature of the pot contents and calculate
>>> the heat input. Divide the first by the second value and you have an
>>> overall wood to pot efficiency as a first approximation.
>>>
>>> Beyond that you get into the realms of interminable arguments about
>>> whether to allow for residual energy in any char left and how many
>>> fairies can dance on a pin head.
>>>
>>> AJH
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
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>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 09:37:03 -0400
>> From: Jock Gill <jg45 at icloud.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> Message-ID: <1330C20E-B9E7-487B-A9A6-A0C41BD264E3 at icloud.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Gents,
>>
>> While efficiency is certainly an interesting concept, it will be deeply influenced by the shape of the pot as well as the location of the pot. I find that a flat bottom container set inside a closed kettle (domed container such as a modified Weber grill), boils water beautifully. The benefit is that ALL surfaces of the pot and the top surface of the water are exposed to temperatures above 350 degrees F. The temperature of the exhaust gases exceeds 400 degrees F.
>>
>> Further, set to the side, not directly over the heat source, I can simmer the water while I cook over the heat source. Or I can boil water over the heat source and slow cook food at about 350 degrees F in the off center portions of the grill.
>>
>> How would we measure the efficiency of such a system, an iCan TLUD, that provides useful heat for about 70 minutes from about 3 pounds of wood pellets and also harvests almost 20% of the weight of the feed stock as charcoal?
>>
>> I note that the system I use does not deposit soot on either the pots or the food. So clean up is much easier. Pots can stay shiny after use. I will have a 12 page PDF on all of this next week.
>>
>> In the end, I think cooks are going to be more interested in the cooking methods and results than just about anything else. If we want a stove to be adopted, the operation of the stove has to be straight forward and the food simply has to taste significantly better than the alternatives. Have we yet considered taste tests as a crucial metric for evaluating stoves? And, of course, I would also like to see gardening tests done with the residues created by stoves. Are some residues more valuable than others? What are the differences? Are residues waste products of low value or are they high value co-products?
>>
>> Just what are the benefits that will convince a person to adopt a new cooking technology? Are they compelling enough to convince a customer at the top of the pyramid - at least for back yard and deck cooking?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jock
>>
>> Jock Gill
>> P.O. Box 3
>> Peacham, VT 05862
>>
>> Cell: (617) 449-8111
>>
>> :> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Oct 3, 2013, at 3:07 AM, ajheggie at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> [Default] On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:41:32 -0400,"Lanny Henson"
>>> <lannych at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I need the formula or spread sheet, for fuel efficiency, for heating water,
>>>> considering the moisture content of wood, and using red oak as fuel. Not a
>>>> water boiling test with simmering, just a water heating test.
>>>
>>> Lanny
>>>
>>> What form do you want this to take?
>>>
>>> My guess is red oak will have a calorific content of around the 18.6
>>> MJ per kilo average suggested for most biomass. When you burn it
>>> completely it gives off CO2 and water. All the water, both the
>>> original moisture content and the water formed from oxidising the
>>> hydrogen atoms in the fuel, in the exhaust contains 2.3MJ of latent
>>> heat and the sensible heat from the exhaust temperature. This heat in
>>> water vapour and the sensible heat of the other exhaust gasses, mostly
>>> nitrogen, any remaining oxygen from the excess air and CO2, is waste
>>> heat, the other waste heat is the heat conducted, radiated and
>>> convected from the stove body. The remainder, the usable heat is what
>>> gets into the pot.
>>>
>>> The simplest conversion of the potential heat in the wood to usable
>>> heat in the pot is to weigh the wood used, calculate its heat value
>>> and measure the rise in temperature of the pot contents and calculate
>>> the heat input. Divide the first by the second value and you have an
>>> overall wood to pot efficiency as a first approximation.
>>>
>>> Beyond that you get into the realms of interminable arguments about
>>> whether to allow for residual energy in any char left and how many
>>> fairies can dance on a pin head.
>>>
>>> AJH
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 11:50:24 -0500
>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Cc: David Osborne <celsius4u at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Jompy water heater deserves your consideration Re:
>> Siemens Empowering people award
>> Message-ID: <524DA050.80100 at ilstu.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Stovers and appropriate technology buffs,
>>
>> Please read the Jompy message below and consider voting. What I found was:
>> a. the 23 candidates have very interesting technologies of interest to
>> many of us.
>>
>> b. Some are "kookie" and even prototype or with limitations such as
>> high cost per unit or Thermal Acoustic Electric output but only for a
>> couple of LEDs. And some are imaginative. I enjoyed reading about them.
>>
>> c. Of them, the Jompy water heater is a true leader and could win one
>> of the three big prizes if a few more of us vote. I actually had
>> trouble deciding on the other two to receive votes. Required to vote
>> for 3.
>>
>> d. I have known the Jompy unit from favorable personal experience in
>> Africa and I am very pleased that David Osborne's creation is one of the
>> candidates.
>>
>> e. Note that the shape of the Jompy is quite compatible with the size
>> and shape of the concentrator disk/plate in the TLUD stoves by Wendelbo
>> (Peko Pe) and Anderson (Champion, Mwoto, Quad). (That could be important
>> some day, but that is not why I voted for it.)
>>
>> Please consider voting, and I hope you will vote for the Jompy. Deadline
>> for voting is not clear, but probably only another week or two to vote.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 10/1/2013 5:08 PM, David Osborne wrote:
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>> We have some exciting news on the Jompy water boiler we have been
>>> chosen as one of the 23 finalists of the Siemens Empowering people
>>> award. we would love if you could take a few minutes of your time and
>>> vote for the Jompy on the link below (you have to choose 3 projects to
>>> vote )
>>>
>>> */http://www.empowering-people-award.siemens-stiftung.org/en/shortlist/projects/jompy-water-boiler//*
>>>
>>> The "empowering people. Award -- Technologies for basic needs" was
>>> launched to identify and to showcase appropriate technical solutions
>>> for the development context worldwide.
>>>
>>> *The Award*
>>> Technologies that make development more sustainable are available
>>> today - the challenge lies in deploying them in the right way. Part of
>>> the problem is often a lack of resources and knowledge, which makes it
>>> more difficult to identify the adequate solution for a specific problem.
>>>
>>> Here the "empowering people. Award" plays a key role. The Award called
>>> upon developers worldwide to enter efficient technical solutions,
>>> which tackle key challenges in the basic supply in developing
>>> countries. The call was aimed at innovations in the categories Water &
>>> Waste Water, Energy, Waste Management & Recycling, Healthcare, Food &
>>> Agriculture, Housing & Construction, and Information & Communication
>>> Technology. When the virtual entry portal of the competition closed on
>>> January 31^st 2013, over 800 entries could be counted from over 90
>>> countries around the globe. These were examined, evaluated and
>>> shortlisted by specialists on technology and development work. An
>>> international expert jury
>>> <http://www.empowering-people-award.siemens-stiftung.org/en/award/jury/> awarded
>>> prize money worth 50,000, 30,000 and 20,000 Euro, in order to foster
>>> the further development of their solutions and/or the implementation
>>> of their projects. Twenty projects will receive a smaller amount of
>>> 5,000 Euro each.
>>>
>>> *Community Voting*
>>> As the "empowering people. Award" is about creating a community with
>>> an interest in technical solutions in the area of development
>>> cooperation, everybody has a say in the winners' selection. By
>>> participating in the Community Voting, the public can additionally
>>> select its own favourite candidate amongst the 23 finalists. The
>>> winner of this special Community Prize can select a prize from
>>> different communications hardware opions such as a computer, a
>>> video-camera or a smartphone, according to his/her project needs
>>> (value up to 3,000 Euro
>>>
>>>
>>> Many Thanks
>>>
>>> Claire Osborne
>>> Celsius Plumbing & Heating
>>> 01292 318194
>>> www.celsius-plumbingandheating.co.uk
>>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 00:20:43 +0700
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> Message-ID: <257901cec05c$ea62f0c0$bf28d240$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Jock
>>
>>> How would we measure the efficiency of such a system, an iCan TLUD, that
>> provides useful heat for about 70 minutes from about 3 pounds of wood
>> pellets and also harvests almost 20% of the weight of the feed stock as
>> charcoal?
>>
>> The system efficiency (which is the work energy divided by the available
>> fuel energy) is well known for good reasons. It predicts fuel consumption in
>> future for a similar task, and is a way to rate different technologies with
>> access to the same amount of the same fuel.
>>
>> The rating of the energy performance has to consider whether or not the fuel
>> left over is useable tomorrow. A good example is an open fire burning
>> sticks. Each morning the fire is lighted using the wood left over from
>> yesterday. Maybe the charcoal is left to burn out each night. That has to be
>> considered as well - if it is burned it is not available tomorrow so it is
>> consumed even if it did no work. Local behaviour matters when considering
>> what stove to promote.
>>
>> The actual heat available (the effective heating value) is the potential a
>> stove could get from a given mass of wood with a given moisture content and
>> elemental analysis.
>>
>> The stove may not yield that heat for a variety of reasons which I should
>> not need to enumerate. If it does not, it is not rewarded with a 'better'
>> number. If the work done, say, boiling water, remains the same, then it is
>> not reasonable to reduce the amount of heat available and then say the stove
>> did a better job because the ratio of the work done to heat yielded is
>> better. Doing a lousier job of burning the fuel, or making use tomorrow of
>> what remains today, cannot give a stove a 'better' rating.
>>
>> For all these reasons, the fact that there is char remaining at the end of a
>> cooking cycle is not a bonus for the thermal performance of a cooking
>> system.
>>
>> When using a fuel that is a non-woody biomass, there are good arguments for,
>> not special consideration, but for a reduction in the requirement for
>> efficiency. This is reasonable if there is a surplus of an unused resource
>> and a scarcity of a used one. So the argument that there should be a
>> 'special' way to calculate the efficiency will not fly. But there is a
>> chance that pleading a special case based on fuel availability could in
>> principle succeed.
>>
>> In the negotiations on this matter, it is not possible to sell the idea that
>> a stove that uses more wood than the baseline should be promoted,
>> particularly on a subsidised basis. It is a much easier sell to show that
>> there is an unused resource that can 'inefficiently' be used but that will
>> provide some additional benefits (real, not potential).
>>
>> As for emissions into the home the usual standard would apply of course. It
>> has to be clean burning.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 00:20:43 +0700
>> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Water heating fuel efficiency formula
>> Message-ID: <257a01cec05c$ebc762c0$c3562840$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear Ron and Andrew and Lanny
>>
>> RON >This is the first time I can recall seeing the number 2.3 MJ/kilo.
>> This must be associated with some initial moisture?
>>
>> It has to be the heat loss for a 'typical' exhaust temperature.
>>
>> The HHV-1.32 MJ/kg is often given as the LHV value though it is not really
>> calculated correctly. The correct 'common' or 'average' value would be
>> HHV-1.38 but there is not use protesting it because the other method is so
>> entrenched.
>>
>> 2.3 would include some heat in gases above 100C. The HVAC and boiler
>> industry in the US uses 150 C as the minimum useable exhaust temperature so
>> the 1.32 does not apply in that case.
>>
>> An 'efficiency' is a ratio. There are many efficiencies in a stove.
>>
>> The system efficiency is perhaps the best description for the work
>> done/energy theoretically available.
>>
>> Another efficiency is take (the work done/(energy theoretically available x
>> combustion efficiency)) where combustion efficiency really means the % of
>> heat that was not lost to unburned gases.
>>
>> Yet another is the potential heat x the combustion efficiency considering
>> also the mechanical losses to arrive at the actual heat available from the
>> fire. This can be used to determine the actual firepower for space heating
>> and cooking considerations. If the heat gained by the pot including the pot
>> material and what is inside it is divided by that number, you get the heat
>> transfer efficiency. That can be useful for tuning the stove's performance.
>>
>> If you want a measure of fuel efficiency, and to be able to predict the fuel
>> consumption in future, you want the system efficiency which is also the
>> easiest to calculate. That tells you how efficiently the fuel resource is
>> being applied to the 'work' of cooking.
>>
>> Regards
>> Crispin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 38, Issue 3
>> *************************************
>>
>
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