[Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000, 000 years from now)

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott crispinpigott at outlook.com
Fri Jun 20 08:55:23 CDT 2014


You need a starchy binder made from waste-something.

Regards
Crispin
From: Energies Naturals C.B.
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 19:48
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000, 000 years from now)



Dear Anand and all,

last week we tried to pelletize powdery biochar from a fluidized bed gasifyer on a european flat die pellet press.

It was a messy disaster ! No pellets unless we mixed it with 75%+ sawdust.

There must be a secret to pelletizing or briquetting the char.

Can you give me a hint, Anand ?

Thanks a lot

Rolf Uhle

Energies Naturals C.B.



On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:01:39 +0530
Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Stovers,
>  We convert agricultural waste into charcoal by using a TLUD type of kiln
> and briquette the powdery char. In India, we produce annually about 800
> million tons of agricultural waste, which can theoretically yield about 166
> million tons of charcoal. There is no need to cut any trees for charcoal.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Cookswell Jikos
> <cookswelljikos at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the facts are reality, and
> > they must be dealt with to avoid future problems.
> > 1: Can different species be grown, that have higher Mean Annual Increments
> > of growth?
> > Yes - at least in East African drylands - the traditional colonial methods
> > of silviculture were focused on high land pine and cypress plantations
> > not indigenous dry land adapted trees. (which now provides the feedstock
> > for more of Kenyas charcoal) Since 1994 we have been experimenting with
> > different dryland planting and agronomic techniques (please see
> > http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf  pg.
> > 7) and most of our findings so far have led us to belive that endimic tree
> > species managed in a holistic and permacutrual manner produce coppiced
> > 'branch' charcoal with an excellent life cycle analysis profile.
> >
> > 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?
> > I think there is always room for improvement in many fields, but I
> > have definitely noticed more small and large farms in Kenya appling more of
> > a conservation agriculture approach to land use planning.
> >
> > 3: Can cooking practises be changed?
> > Yes - but with great difficulty. Imagine me coming from Kenya to tell your
> > grandma that she's all wrong and vice versa...
> >
> > What I have found though is that as people achieve higher incomes (and
> > watch more TV) in East Africa cooking energy sources becomes more mixed and
> > more specialized depending on the dish being cooked.
> >
> > 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?
> > The Kenya Ceramic Jiko has been one of the most widely disseminated
> > cookstoves in East Africa, on one hand, it saves users up to 50% on their
> > charcoal bills compared to all metal non-insulated stoves. On the other
> > hand, me and my father always wondered that if by making popularly stove
> > that made it cheaper and easier to use charcoal coupled
> > with population growth, did we not create more of a fuel dependency? This
> > is why since the 1990's we have been advocating as much as possible to
> > encourage all other stove makers to also think about provisions for
> > reafforestation efforts.
> >
> >
> > 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of energy, be used to take
> > some of the pressure off the woodlots?
> > Please see this recently released quite amazing document from ICRAF
> > http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013 ''What
> > happend to the charcoal crisis?''
> >
> > Yes, but if as WWF has seen in Virunga, if people switch to fossil fuels,
> > what happens when they are found under forests? And even solar cookers and
> > microwaves may not help as much as if one takes into account the Life Cycle
> > Analysis of the transport, computing power to design one etc... a 3 stone
> > fire and growing your own trees start looking more attractive.
> >
> > I am a great proponent of tree based biomass energy for at least people's
> > sunday BBQ's ( which is a huge cause of charcoal us in Kenya!) due to the
> > fact of all the other ecological trickledown effects.
> >
> > 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible, to put the land to a
> > higher use, with multi-cropping?
> > ...etc...
> >
> > yes we have tried food, fuel and fodder combinations to good effect in
> > Kajiado - linear non-woodlot forestry is beginning to create more of
> > an appearance in this area as land becomes adjudicated and title deeds
> > issued. Land tenure is a huge obstacle to forestry in Kenya, this is why
> > I personally am in favour of things like aerial seeding programs - if we
> > some how grow too many trees, we will always be able to cut them down to
> > cook with!
> > https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef
> >
> > Many thanks for your response.
> >
> > Teddy
> >
> > *Cookswell Jikos*
> > www.cookswell.co.ke
> > www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos
> > www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com
> > Mobile: +254 700 380 009
> > Mobile: +254 700 905 913
> > P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:15 AM, <Carefreeland at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>   Kevin and Stovers,
> >>     I am desperately wanting to farther study points 1,2,5 and 6. You got
> >> my attention buddy. Sorry, I don't have a 100 year old experiment to show
> >> you the results of my work. I do not do research papers because I'm an
> >> illiterate idiot. Many of you who have been on this list a while may
> >> remember- this letter will be a small record of the state of a sample of my
> >> research. Nobody has me asked this lately but you, Kevin. I'll probably die
> >> knowing and wanting to know way more than I can ever tell, if I talked the
> >> rest of my life. It just seems to bore everybody but some Biomass people. I
> >> miss you all out here alone trapped in the future.
> >>     My extensive experience with landscaping and gardening suggests we
> >> have only begun to barely scratch the surface of multicropping research.
> >> Mother Nature has done an amazing job of this, but we are not after the
> >> same goals as her. Typical natural forestry suggests that a 3 layer canopy
> >> is most efficent in biomass productive environments. As we push into less
> >> productive land, that will be different in both directions. . What each
> >> layer consists of for any given set of environmental conditions is has wide
> >> increasingly complex variables. Someday 100 years from now, a computer
> >> program will be crunching in whatever is the Cray Super Computer of that
> >> age. It will tell the then modern forester what works best- maybe. Then,
> >> only experiments to compare the real time data to to the computer model
> >> will fine tune the long term plan.
> >>     Modern complex forestry computer programs mostly focus on select
> >> harvest models. Computer planting programs just use current harvest data to
> >> optimise plantation - type management.  How do you get data on trees that
> >> take 300 years or more to be fully mature?  Recent studies suggest that
> >> 1000 year old Redwoods are still increasing in biomass production over
> >> younger trees. Got 1000 years to collect data?? Maybe we should be breeding
> >> many trees to grow 1000 years.
> >>     If we make half the progress growing trees that we have made in a
> >> typical productive vegetable garden in 4000 or more years, you can throw
> >> out the predictions for production numbers. New numbers may be easily a
> >> power of ten more productive. Just look what small changes have brought us.
> >> When you consider the efficiency of photosynthisis to convert sunlight into
> >> chemical energy, that number theoreticlly can go two powers of ten or more.
> >> Not only do we need to first optimise growing technique, but then optimise
> >> breeding, and back to growing technique and so fourth.
> >>     I don't even want to consider pandoras box of geneticly modified
> >> plants. I think outer space is the best place to release them so they don't
> >> contaminate our biosphere like GM corn has. I considered that thought over
> >> 20 years ago and it merged with my childhood idea of growing trees on the
> >> moon and on orbit.  That is why I've wanted to merge a greenhouse with a
> >> blacksmith shop. It's how space homesteads will do it. I discussed this
> >> issue at a hydroponics conference in the early 1990's and everybodys eyes
> >> rolled, so I just went out and worked on it with what I had. Nobody came to
> >> collect the amazing data I saw everyday for twenty years. A few years ago,
> >> my greenhouse was forced to close and my finacial situation has nearly
> >> halted all my research. I hope to slowly get back in the game if I don't
> >> loose my new 5 acre farm. It is Gods gift to me for my study. Most of the
> >> assets of this land are hidden and only of use to me.
> >>     Most of the forests today are being primarlily managed for lumber of
> >> some type. Hunting wildlife is about the only large second crop. Small
> >> private lands and prototype corporate plantations are where the experiments
> >> are being done. When we start to combine orchard and vegetable production
> >> with forestry, the sky is the limit. I take that back, how far has the Big
> >> Bang blown things open today? That is the limit. And this is how we will
> >> get out there if we do, over a billion years of future evolution and space
> >> travel. Call me crazy, but I saw a powerful vision as a child that told me
> >> this. You just keep moving the decimal point on the equation. Carl Sagan
> >> must have seen a vision like mine, and so I supported his work long ago.
> >> Most thought he was craazy too. Thanks Carl.
> >>     I have been blessed to spend a little time with one of the greatest
> >> foresters of our generation. John Guthrie of Wiggins Mississippi fame. My
> >> crash course in Southern USA forestry, shortly after Hurricane Katrina,
> >> taught me the following: The closer we get to understanding the original
> >> native environment, the better we can merge our needs to the use of the
> >> land given to us.
> >>     John would be first to tell you that if only a higher power can make
> >> a tree, who are we to decide how and where to grow it? That has led him to
> >> push the reintroduction of missing native tree species which have been
> >> eliminated one at a time. Grown in plantations to examine and focuse on
> >> each, longleaf pine is a good example. It was like the White Oak tree, the
> >> king of the forest, until it was logged nearly to extinction. Currently,
> >> burning of undergrowth is done like the Natives did for management in early
> >> stage plantations. Timing is everything. We had lively conversation about
> >> grazing and/ or underplanting of numerous shrub species to reduce this
> >> practice. I think I opened up his mind by the smile on his face. Some
> >> private plantations were doing this on a very basic experimental level in
> >> 2006.
> >>     The forest plot I was camped in, had longleaf pine being interplanted
> >> where select thining was being done to young Southern Yellow Pine, It was
> >> John"s land right behind the International Paper plant, so I think it was a
> >> prototype. The thinnings were going mostly to chip and saw for OSB and
> >> other products. The small thinings were hauled at harvest cost for pulp.
> >> Katrina opened it up more - as if God were saying to John " you got the
> >> idea boy, now go with it and I'll help yu".
> >>     Dr. Michler I belive is his name, discussed his work at Purdue U.
> >> with me about 10 years ago. At the time he was pioneering in the selecting
> >> of 3 hardwood species: Red  Oak, Black Cherry, and Walnut. An Indiana
> >> nursery was selling the products of tissue culture of the best selected
> >> species. Breeding of hardwoods was still in it's infancy. The new science
> >> then was using gene mapping to select known genes to assist breeding of
> >> trees which were only starting to bear fruit. That is very exciting -more
> >> productive and safe than GM plants. I called because I wanted to know if
> >> anybody had studied growing trees to make charcoal fuel and he wondered
> >> what for.....
> >>     Kevin, I would like to add to your bucket list a huge compounding
> >> factor number 7.  What happens when we do all of the above, yet look at
> >> secondary and multiple layers of recycling of plants. For a great example
> >> you and I may have discussed the fact that Charcoal production for an
> >> industrial fuel may be the best utimate landfill killer. Demolition waste
> >> must be the largest growing filler of landfills. I have done limited
> >> research into which trees produce the best metallurgical charcoal. What
> >> happens when we breed trees for example, to both build houses, then reuse
> >> the wood to fuel a blast furnace to make the finest iron ever made?. The
> >> two uses are very compatible. Just so happens that some of the strongest
> >> hardwoods as well as pine species make real clean charcoal. The hardwoods
> >> make the most dense charcoal by nature. We can also infuse charcoal with
> >> additional hydrocarbons in the conversion process, with net energy
> >> production. If we grow walnut trees for example, we can produce food and
> >> many chemicals too at no additional cost.
> >>     Nearly every organic chemical can be coaxed from living material.
> >> Don't even get me started on the chemical refinery/production avenue. I've
> >> said enough. I cannot do much more or take time to record what I've found
> >>  out or can find out without a break in life somewhere. That is why I don't
> >> contribute much anymore to these lists. It gets me all excited, and then
> >> frustration sets in. I have 3 kids to raise and cannot waste my time
> >> playing with the future of mankind when I need food stamps.
> >>     Enough said.
> >>
> >>
> >>     Ok , do I have anybodies attention now???
> >>     I have to get off the computer so my Son can do his homework,  Sorry,
> >> no time for editing or additional info tonight.
> >>
> >>     Dan Dimiduk
> >>     Shangri- La Research.
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 11/13/2013 7:41:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> >> kchisholm at ca.inter.net writes:
> >>
> >> Dear RB
> >>
> >> OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the facts are reality, and
> >> they must be dealt with to avoid future problems.
> >> 1: Can different species be grown, that have higher Mean Annual
> >> Increments of growth?
> >> 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?
> >> 3: Can cooking practises be changed?
> >> 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?
> >> 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of energy, be used to take
> >> some of the pressure off the woodlots?
> >> 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible, to put the land to a
> >> higher use, with multi-cropping?
> >> ...etc...
> >>
> >> Most people like to do things the way they have always been done. They
> >> can't expect different results if they do things the same way they have
> >> always done things in the past. The cruel facts are that if they want
> >> different results, then they will have to find changes that are acceptable
> >> to them, OR choose to live with the consequences of their present
> >> practises. Those seem to be the cruel realities.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)


--
Energies Naturals C.B. <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>

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