[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
revjcsd at juno.com
revjcsd at juno.com
Fri Mar 7 23:55:01 CST 2014
Tom,
Is there a way to get a "Stoves Digest" that does not include and/or repeat previous conversations whether or not the latter are relevant to the latest post?
Issue 8 is particularly messy.
Thanks.
---------- Original Message ----------
From: stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:38:17 -0700
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no longer Re: The
wood and char and fuel "debate" ) (Richard Stanley)
2. Re: Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no longer Re: The
wood and char and fuel "debate" ) (Kevin C)
3. Re: upside down bathtub drain effect (Richard Stanley)
4. Dung as briquette-type fuel (no longer Re: Cuber and size of
densifying machines. (Paul Anderson)
5. Re: Cuber and size of densifying machines.
(Energies Naturals C.B.)
6. Re: upside down bathtub drain effect (Jock Gill)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:13:11 -0600
From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no
longer Re: The wood and char and fuel "debate" )
Message-ID: <3390FC8F-A8F8-4AA7-BF41-025227BAC280 at legacyfound.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Nolbert,
Our own knowledge of using animal manure as a solid fuel is limited to briquetting it. It comes from Francis and Mary Kavita in rural Kenya (Miumbuni village in the former Makweni district ~2hrs east of NBI off Mombassa road). I copy this to them but also will tell you or others interested in communicating with them directly to be patient: They receive email only a hand transcribed snail mail posted letter out through the son in NBI
Francis and MAry are the real masters of the craft of using cow dung in Masainni at least out in the Mara, and camel dung up in Somalia? and a few other dung varieties in between. The process they developed is brilliant in its simplicity and ease of replication anywhere: They simply wash out, read, stir the dung around in a tub of water, decant the water, re fill with fresh water, stir some more decant (Francis mentioned that usually two or three cycles are enough), until the water in the tub of washed dung becomes clear. what remains of the dung, is a fiber/seed and crumb rich composite for blending into a briquette by itself or with in fillers of your choice to the extent tha the mass molds easily in your hands (ie., it takes a "set" in your hands without acting spongy). The combination tends to make a nice clean odorless fuel if your added infiller itself combusts well too ) .
I do not know how this will work in pellets but it produces a pretty clean burning fuel.
But I am lazy: Please try that idea in pellet form and teach the rest of us what you have learned.
Tulabagane ssebo,
Richard
On Mar 6, 2014, at 3:10 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza wrote:
Mr. Bjarne Laustsen,
We have a 2-3 commercial briquette producers in Uganda. One particular
company gave us an excellent sample for our Quad gasifier stoves.
However the quality soon deteriorated (for two subsequent supplies),
they became un-burnable in the gasifiers. They were very smoky, picked
up moisture quite easily. So we had to dry them a day before cooking
each meal.
Reason was variations in feedstock mixtures, due to infrequent
supplies. These guys drive all around the country collecting biomass
feedstock, so they surely couldn't maintain a steady and consistent
supply of feedstock which affected their final product. The other
company added chicken droppings, which also made the briquettes smoky.
Dr. Paul Anderson once picked high density (only wood shavings) from
Zambia, they were excellent.
Hope you put some of these issues in consideration as you prepare to
use briquettes in gasifiers.
Regards, Nolbert.
2014-03-06 10:32 GMT+03:00, Bjarne Laustsen <bjarne at kiwlau.com>:
> To Paul and others
> Fuel supply can be big business but it does not need to be.
> We have been making pellets for gasification stoves.
> The pellets in itself work very well if they are in sizes from 6 mm or 8
> mm in diameter, they have been burning very good in our gasification stoves.
> The problems in relation with pellets for gasification stoves are how to
> find good and sustainable pellet presses for producing the pellets.
> The slides from the presentation from Crane Wang MUYANG illustrate this
> very well. Because the pellet press they shows are big and expensive
> equipments that will do a good job, however they are outside the
> financial reach of most of us.
> We have experiences with some of the smaller and cheaper pellets mills,
> and they are not able to produce pellets in a sustainable way. They are
> designed for feed pellet production, and they aretherefore not able to
> produce fuel pellets in an economical way.
>
> I have noted that in China they are mainly working with pellets for fuel
> production while in India they are working with briquettes.
>
> For me to see the cuber will still be an to expensive solution.
>
> The solution for us will be to use the Indian type of mechanical piston
> briquette presses that can make briquettes with diameter of 60 mm and
> get attached a puck cutter on that so the briquettes are cut out in
> pucks. Such pucks will be a good fuel for gasification stoves. And the
> equipment is reasonable in price so it is possible for many to finance
> such a solution.
>
> These briquette presses can work with most types of agricultural
> residues, so we at the same can shift to using renewable biomass for
> cooking and in this way also contribute to reducing the deforestation.
>
> Bjarne Laustsen
>
> On 3/5/2014 10:47 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>> Stovers,
>>
>> Slide #9 of the presentation at the site given below is interesting.
>> Those cubes should work very well in gasifiers of many different sizes.
>>
>> I was impressed by the other slides that show the very large sizes of
>> the pelletizers and cubers. If supply of raw materials is
>> sufficient, large machines seem so much more appropriate than 100 or
>> 1000 small units. Fuel supply is BIG business.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 3/5/2014 9:58 AM, Energies Naturals C.B. wrote:
>>> Hello Michael,
>>>
>>> .....
>>>
>>> We saw some examples of cubers in a Beijing(?) stove exposition some
>>> time ago.
>>>
>>> Also check this:
>>> http://www.novator.se/bioint/BPUA12Pres/10_BPUA12_Crane_Wang_MUYANG.pdf
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> Rolf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:36:47 -0600
>>> Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are absolutely correct Paul !
>>>> Deforestation happens all over the world with the lack of fire wood.
>>>> There simply is not enough dry sources of trees or waste from them
>>>> even for TLUD's to keep even poor consumers interested in them.
>>>> We know vetiver grass has the highest photosynthetic activity of any
>>>> plant, making it the most renewable energy source on the planet.
>>>> We just have to densify the grass into pellets at a cost that people
>>>> can afford. The only way we can do this is to eliminate the cost of
>>>> diesel fuel to run the generator to make the pellets.
>>>> We are planning on using a downdraft gasifier for gas to accomplish
>>>> this. We just have to perfect this process and size it for a
>>>> portable pelleting plant that can be taken to the fields they grow it.
>>>> When we perfect this it will be capable to work everywhere in the
>>>> world that needs clean cook stoves.
>>>> If you want to see what we are doing check out
>>>> http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/grass-energy
>>>> and http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/sustainable-path-on-how-to
>>>>
>>>> Michael E. MahowaldPresident
>>>> Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:43:31 -0600
>>>> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org; biochar at yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: [Stoves] The wood and char and fuel "debate" (was a long
>>>> time ago called Re: Request for technology proposals - Clean Stove
>>>> Initiative, Indonesia)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Crispin, Ron and all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is interesting reading the back and forth between Ron and
>>>> Crispin. I emphasize two paragraphs from Crispin,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2/24/2014 10:10 AM, Crispin Pembert-Pigott wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There
>>>> is no dispute between us whatsoever as to the energy
>>>> consumption: the energy remaining in the char represents
>>>> energy not liberated from the fuel consumed.
>>>> The
>>>> important question is not what we want, but what the
>>>> customer of the test result wants. They are not asking how
>>>> much energy was used when cooking, they asked how much
>>>> fuel
>>>> was consumed. The answer is of course different if
>>>> there is
>>>> char remaining and that char is not 'fuel' to the same
>>>> stove
>>>> for the next fire.
>>>> For the vast majority of "customers"
>>>> (including governments that
>>>> want to reduce or reverse deforestation), the important
>>>> question is
>>>> "how much wood is burned." The interests are highly related to
>>>> WOOD, specifically related to TREES, not even counting sawdust
>>>> that
>>>> goes into pellets.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, because TLUD stoves are VERY GOOD at burning NON-wood biomass,
>>>> the wood saved can be 100%. And we still get the char.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Concerning fuel and wood and non-wood and char and other such
>>>> measurements, the real problems can come from rankings and
>>>> Tiers and
>>>> o
>>>> ther reports that could give excellent stoves some poor results
>>>> because the "authorities" are defining fuel as being exclusively
>>>> wood, as in trees and woodlands that need to be protected.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we could get past that "imposed intellectual construct" of fuel
>>>> being wood, we could make more progress about some types of
>>>> biomass
>>>> stoves being even better than good for the environment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rest assured that the advocates of alcohol and kerosene and other
>>>> NON-biomass fuels are pointing out that their stoves help minimize
>>>> deforestation/enviromental degradation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Biomass that is NOT WOOD needs to be recognized as being favorable
>>>> for saving trees, and credit given to the stoves that can use
>>>> those
>>>> non-wood biomass fuels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AND that recognition and credit needs to be EXPLICITLY STATED
>>>> IN THE
>>>> REPORTS ABOUT FUEL CONSUMPTION.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In some ways, this is all just another discussion about why the
>>>> reported results of any stove testing need much explanation (which
>>>> is usually not provided) and why the results are so easy to ignore
>>>> as being poorly related to the realities of people and their
>>>> stoves
>>>> and their fuels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope we can do better in the future.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> (still another week to go on my vacation trip to Brazil,
>>>> so I probably will not be sending replies.)
>>>>
>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>>> site:
>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
> --
> Bjarne Laustsen
> Director
> Kiwia & Laustsen Limited
> P.O. Box 285
> Karatu, Tanzania
> phone +255 787295684
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
--
Nolbert Muhumuza
President & Chief Operations Officer
Awamu Biomass Energy Ltd.
P.O. Box 40127, Nakawa
Kampala - Uganda.
Mobile: +256-776-346724
Skype: nolbertm
www.awamu.ug
_______________________________________________
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 08:40:40 -0800
From: Kevin C <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no
longer Re: The wood and char and fuel "debate" )
Message-ID: <20140307084040.71077gf99klkz0qw at webmail.uniserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed"
Dear Richard
I am quite pleased to see Francis and Mary upgrading dung fuels by
washing out the solubles.
Do they use the "dung wash water" for fertigation purposes, as I
suggested 5 or 6 years ago?
Have you made any "holey briquettes" with the washed dung?
( Holey shit briquettes :-)
Best wishes,
Kevin
Quoting Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>:
> Nolbert,
>
> Our own knowledge of using animal manure as a solid fuel is limited
> to briquetting it. It comes from Francis and Mary Kavita in rural
> Kenya (Miumbuni village in the former Makweni district ~2hrs east of
> NBI off Mombassa road). I copy this to them but also will tell you
> or others interested in communicating with them directly to be
> patient: They receive email only a hand transcribed snail mail
> posted letter out through the son in NBI
>
> Francis and MAry are the real masters of the craft of using cow dung
> in Masainni at least out in the Mara, and camel dung up in Somalia?
> and a few other dung varieties in between. The process they
> developed is brilliant in its simplicity and ease of replication
> anywhere: They simply wash out, read, stir the dung around in a tub
> of water, decant the water, re fill with fresh water, stir some more
> decant (Francis mentioned that usually two or three cycles are
> enough), until the water in the tub of washed dung becomes clear.
> what remains of the dung, is a fiber/seed and crumb rich composite
> for blending into a briquette by itself or with in fillers of your
> choice to the extent tha the mass molds easily in your hands (ie.,
> it takes a "set" in your hands without acting spongy). The
> combination tends to make a nice clean odorless fuel if your added
> infiller itself combusts well too ) .
> I do not know how this will work in pellets but it produces a pretty
> clean burning fuel.
>
> But I am lazy: Please try that idea in pellet form and teach the
> rest of us what you have learned.
>
> Tulabagane ssebo,
>
> Richard
>
> On Mar 6, 2014, at 3:10 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza wrote:
>
> Mr. Bjarne Laustsen,
>
> We have a 2-3 commercial briquette producers in Uganda. One particular
> company gave us an excellent sample for our Quad gasifier stoves.
> However the quality soon deteriorated (for two subsequent supplies),
> they became un-burnable in the gasifiers. They were very smoky, picked
> up moisture quite easily. So we had to dry them a day before cooking
> each meal.
>
> Reason was variations in feedstock mixtures, due to infrequent
> supplies. These guys drive all around the country collecting biomass
> feedstock, so they surely couldn't maintain a steady and consistent
> supply of feedstock which affected their final product. The other
> company added chicken droppings, which also made the briquettes smoky.
>
> Dr. Paul Anderson once picked high density (only wood shavings) from
> Zambia, they were excellent.
>
> Hope you put some of these issues in consideration as you prepare to
> use briquettes in gasifiers.
>
> Regards, Nolbert.
>
> 2014-03-06 10:32 GMT+03:00, Bjarne Laustsen <bjarne at kiwlau.com>:
>> To Paul and others
>> Fuel supply can be big business but it does not need to be.
>> We have been making pellets for gasification stoves.
>> The pellets in itself work very well if they are in sizes from 6 mm or 8
>> mm in diameter, they have been burning very good in our gasification stoves.
>> The problems in relation with pellets for gasification stoves are how to
>> find good and sustainable pellet presses for producing the pellets.
>> The slides from the presentation from Crane Wang MUYANG illustrate this
>> very well. Because the pellet press they shows are big and expensive
>> equipments that will do a good job, however they are outside the
>> financial reach of most of us.
>> We have experiences with some of the smaller and cheaper pellets mills,
>> and they are not able to produce pellets in a sustainable way. They are
>> designed for feed pellet production, and they aretherefore not able to
>> produce fuel pellets in an economical way.
>>
>> I have noted that in China they are mainly working with pellets for fuel
>> production while in India they are working with briquettes.
>>
>> For me to see the cuber will still be an to expensive solution.
>>
>> The solution for us will be to use the Indian type of mechanical piston
>> briquette presses that can make briquettes with diameter of 60 mm and
>> get attached a puck cutter on that so the briquettes are cut out in
>> pucks. Such pucks will be a good fuel for gasification stoves. And the
>> equipment is reasonable in price so it is possible for many to finance
>> such a solution.
>>
>> These briquette presses can work with most types of agricultural
>> residues, so we at the same can shift to using renewable biomass for
>> cooking and in this way also contribute to reducing the deforestation.
>>
>> Bjarne Laustsen
>>
>> On 3/5/2014 10:47 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>> Stovers,
>>>
>>> Slide #9 of the presentation at the site given below is interesting.
>>> Those cubes should work very well in gasifiers of many different sizes.
>>>
>>> I was impressed by the other slides that show the very large sizes of
>>> the pelletizers and cubers. If supply of raw materials is
>>> sufficient, large machines seem so much more appropriate than 100 or
>>> 1000 small units. Fuel supply is BIG business.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 3/5/2014 9:58 AM, Energies Naturals C.B. wrote:
>>>> Hello Michael,
>>>>
>>>> .....
>>>>
>>>> We saw some examples of cubers in a Beijing(?) stove exposition some
>>>> time ago.
>>>>
>>>> Also check this:
>>>> http://www.novator.se/bioint/BPUA12Pres/10_BPUA12_Crane_Wang_MUYANG.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>
>>>> Rolf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:36:47 -0600
>>>> Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You are absolutely correct Paul !
>>>>> Deforestation happens all over the world with the lack of fire wood.
>>>>> There simply is not enough dry sources of trees or waste from them
>>>>> even for TLUD's to keep even poor consumers interested in them.
>>>>> We know vetiver grass has the highest photosynthetic activity of any
>>>>> plant, making it the most renewable energy source on the planet.
>>>>> We just have to densify the grass into pellets at a cost that people
>>>>> can afford. The only way we can do this is to eliminate the cost of
>>>>> diesel fuel to run the generator to make the pellets.
>>>>> We are planning on using a downdraft gasifier for gas to accomplish
>>>>> this. We just have to perfect this process and size it for a
>>>>> portable pelleting plant that can be taken to the fields they grow it.
>>>>> When we perfect this it will be capable to work everywhere in the
>>>>> world that needs clean cook stoves.
>>>>> If you want to see what we are doing check out
>>>>> http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/grass-energy
>>>>> and http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/sustainable-path-on-how-to
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael E. MahowaldPresident
>>>>> Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:43:31 -0600
>>>>> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org; biochar at yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Subject: [Stoves] The wood and char and fuel "debate" (was a long
>>>>> time ago called Re: Request for technology proposals - Clean Stove
>>>>> Initiative, Indonesia)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Crispin, Ron and all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting reading the back and forth between Ron and
>>>>> Crispin. I emphasize two paragraphs from Crispin,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/2014 10:10 AM, Crispin Pembert-Pigott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There
>>>>> is no dispute between us whatsoever as to the energy
>>>>> consumption: the energy remaining in the char represents
>>>>> energy not liberated from the fuel consumed.
>>>>> The
>>>>> important question is not what we want, but what the
>>>>> customer of the test result wants. They are not asking how
>>>>> much energy was used when cooking, they asked how much
>>>>> fuel
>>>>> was consumed. The answer is of course different if
>>>>> there is
>>>>> char remaining and that char is not 'fuel' to the same
>>>>> stove
>>>>> for the next fire.
>>>>> For the vast majority of "customers"
>>>>> (including governments that
>>>>> want to reduce or reverse deforestation), the important
>>>>> question is
>>>>> "how much wood is burned." The interests are highly related to
>>>>> WOOD, specifically related to TREES, not even counting sawdust
>>>>> that
>>>>> goes into pellets.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, because TLUD stoves are VERY GOOD at burning NON-wood biomass,
>>>>> the wood saved can be 100%. And we still get the char.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Concerning fuel and wood and non-wood and char and other such
>>>>> measurements, the real problems can come from rankings and
>>>>> Tiers and
>>>>> o
>>>>> ther reports that could give excellent stoves some poor results
>>>>> because the "authorities" are defining fuel as being exclusively
>>>>> wood, as in trees and woodlands that need to be protected.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could get past that "imposed intellectual construct" of fuel
>>>>> being wood, we could make more progress about some types of
>>>>> biomass
>>>>> stoves being even better than good for the environment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rest assured that the advocates of alcohol and kerosene and other
>>>>> NON-biomass fuels are pointing out that their stoves help minimize
>>>>> deforestation/enviromental degradation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Biomass that is NOT WOOD needs to be recognized as being favorable
>>>>> for saving trees, and credit given to the stoves that can use
>>>>> those
>>>>> non-wood biomass fuels.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> AND that recognition and credit needs to be EXPLICITLY STATED
>>>>> IN THE
>>>>> REPORTS ABOUT FUEL CONSUMPTION.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In some ways, this is all just another discussion about why the
>>>>> reported results of any stove testing need much explanation (which
>>>>> is usually not provided) and why the results are so easy to ignore
>>>>> as being poorly related to the realities of people and their
>>>>> stoves
>>>>> and their fuels.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope we can do better in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> (still another week to go on my vacation trip to Brazil,
>>>>> so I probably will not be sending replies.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>>>> site:
>>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bjarne Laustsen
>> Director
>> Kiwia & Laustsen Limited
>> P.O. Box 285
>> Karatu, Tanzania
>> phone +255 787295684
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
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>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nolbert Muhumuza
>
> President & Chief Operations Officer
> Awamu Biomass Energy Ltd.
> P.O. Box 40127, Nakawa
> Kampala - Uganda.
>
> Mobile: +256-776-346724
> Skype: nolbertm
> www.awamu.ug
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
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> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
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>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:44:43 -0600
From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] upside down bathtub drain effect
Message-ID: <43FB4098-86B4-4BDA-B05F-BA410D731A43 at legacyfound.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Is those are your legs ; I have to ask what the water is hitting below?
On the diffuser,
Kobus Venter, John Davies and I also tried to diffuse the gassified flame on Kobus' then emerging gassier stove, (~2004/5), by replicating a normal LP gas burner top. We simply cut off end of a tin can (sides were about 1" high--enough to just fit into the stove top) . We added a series of ?" dia holes not on the top but on all round the side wall tin can.
The flame jets actually turned white -blue not unlike a regular gas stove but that took some fudzing to get fuel air balance right : The steaks tasted of the wood and charcoal that the briquettes were made of; incredible! The only problem was that to achieve this was tricky and unstable. Very fussy issues, such as to fuel load rate, air flow, bed thickness and all the other things you all of the gassification fraternity get into. I hang on the sidelines waiting for the perfect solution, perhaps for Godot.
Richard/ Nicaragua
Pietermaritsburg and Paulshoft South africa ~2005
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:14:45 -0600
From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Stoves] Dung as briquette-type fuel (no longer Re: Cuber and
size of densifying machines.
Message-ID: <5319FE85.8090907 at ilstu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Dear all, especially those in India,
The two messages exchanged below discuss washing of the dung before
making briquettes.
1. Washing is an extra step.
2. Is the wash water a pollution or is it used for fertilizer value?
3. What of the solubles (that would be washed out) could be useful as
binder to keep the dung cakes together?
I have made (made for me) dung "tablets" for use in TLUD stoves in
India. Seemed to work fine when very dry. (spread it about 15 mm
thick on a hard surface, and while wet it is scored (sliced) with a
metal edge (like a license plate of a car) into squares of desired
size. Allow to dry, turning over at least one time. tablets come out
together (3 to 6 attached) and are only finally separated at the time of
use in the stove. .... I did not try that with washed dung.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
On 3/7/2014 10:40 AM, Kevin C wrote:
> Dear Richard
>
> I am quite pleased to see Francis and Mary upgrading dung fuels by
> washing out the solubles.
>
> Do they use the "dung wash water" for fertigation purposes, as I
> suggested 5 or 6 years ago?
>
> Have you made any "holey briquettes" with the washed dung?
> ( Holey shit briquettes :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>:
>
>> Nolbert,
>>
>> Our own knowledge of using animal manure as a solid fuel is limited
>> to briquetting it. It comes from Francis and Mary Kavita in rural
>> Kenya (Miumbuni village in the former Makweni district ~2hrs east of
>> NBI off Mombassa road). I copy this to them but also will tell you or
>> others interested in communicating with them directly to be patient:
>> They receive email only a hand transcribed snail mail posted letter
>> out through the son in NBI
>>
>> Francis and MAry are the real masters of the craft of using cow dung
>> in Masainni at least out in the Mara, and camel dung up in Somalia?
>> and a few other dung varieties in between. The process they developed
>> is brilliant in its simplicity and ease of replication anywhere: They
>> simply wash out, read, stir the dung around in a tub of water, decant
>> the water, re fill with fresh water, stir some more decant (Francis
>> mentioned that usually two or three cycles are enough), until the
>> water in the tub of washed dung becomes clear. what remains of the
>> dung, is a fiber/seed and crumb rich composite for blending into a
>> briquette by itself or with in fillers of your choice to the extent
>> tha the mass molds easily in your hands (ie., it takes a "set" in
>> your hands without acting spongy). The combination tends to make a
>> nice clean odorless fuel if your added infiller itself combusts well
>> too ) .
>> I do not know how this will work in pellets but it produces a pretty
>> clean burning fuel.
>>
>> But I am lazy: Please try that idea in pellet form and teach the rest
>> of us what you have learned.
>>
>> Tulabagane ssebo,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> On Mar 6, 2014, at 3:10 AM, Nolbert Muhumuza wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Bjarne Laustsen,
>>
>> We have a 2-3 commercial briquette producers in Uganda. One particular
>> company gave us an excellent sample for our Quad gasifier stoves.
>> However the quality soon deteriorated (for two subsequent supplies),
>> they became un-burnable in the gasifiers. They were very smoky, picked
>> up moisture quite easily. So we had to dry them a day before cooking
>> each meal.
>>
>> Reason was variations in feedstock mixtures, due to infrequent
>> supplies. These guys drive all around the country collecting biomass
>> feedstock, so they surely couldn't maintain a steady and consistent
>> supply of feedstock which affected their final product. The other
>> company added chicken droppings, which also made the briquettes smoky.
>>
>> Dr. Paul Anderson once picked high density (only wood shavings) from
>> Zambia, they were excellent.
>>
>> Hope you put some of these issues in consideration as you prepare to
>> use briquettes in gasifiers.
>>
>> Regards, Nolbert.
>>
>> 2014-03-06 10:32 GMT+03:00, Bjarne Laustsen <bjarne at kiwlau.com>:
>>> To Paul and others
>>> Fuel supply can be big business but it does not need to be.
>>> We have been making pellets for gasification stoves.
>>> The pellets in itself work very well if they are in sizes from 6 mm
>>> or 8
>>> mm in diameter, they have been burning very good in our gasification
>>> stoves.
>>> The problems in relation with pellets for gasification stoves are
>>> how to
>>> find good and sustainable pellet presses for producing the pellets.
>>> The slides from the presentation from Crane Wang MUYANG illustrate this
>>> very well. Because the pellet press they shows are big and expensive
>>> equipments that will do a good job, however they are outside the
>>> financial reach of most of us.
>>> We have experiences with some of the smaller and cheaper pellets mills,
>>> and they are not able to produce pellets in a sustainable way. They are
>>> designed for feed pellet production, and they aretherefore not able to
>>> produce fuel pellets in an economical way.
>>>
>>> I have noted that in China they are mainly working with pellets for
>>> fuel
>>> production while in India they are working with briquettes.
>>>
>>> For me to see the cuber will still be an to expensive solution.
>>>
>>> The solution for us will be to use the Indian type of mechanical piston
>>> briquette presses that can make briquettes with diameter of 60 mm and
>>> get attached a puck cutter on that so the briquettes are cut out in
>>> pucks. Such pucks will be a good fuel for gasification stoves. And the
>>> equipment is reasonable in price so it is possible for many to finance
>>> such a solution.
>>>
>>> These briquette presses can work with most types of agricultural
>>> residues, so we at the same can shift to using renewable biomass for
>>> cooking and in this way also contribute to reducing the deforestation.
>>>
>>> Bjarne Laustsen
>>>
>>> On 3/5/2014 10:47 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>>> Stovers,
>>>>
>>>> Slide #9 of the presentation at the site given below is interesting.
>>>> Those cubes should work very well in gasifiers of many different
>>>> sizes.
>>>>
>>>> I was impressed by the other slides that show the very large sizes of
>>>> the pelletizers and cubers. If supply of raw materials is
>>>> sufficient, large machines seem so much more appropriate than 100 or
>>>> 1000 small units. Fuel supply is BIG business.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>
>>>> On 3/5/2014 9:58 AM, Energies Naturals C.B. wrote:
>>>>> Hello Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> We saw some examples of cubers in a Beijing(?) stove exposition some
>>>>> time ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also check this:
>>>>> http://www.novator.se/bioint/BPUA12Pres/10_BPUA12_Crane_Wang_MUYANG.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>>
>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:36:47 -0600
>>>>> Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You are absolutely correct Paul !
>>>>>> Deforestation happens all over the world with the lack of fire wood.
>>>>>> There simply is not enough dry sources of trees or waste from them
>>>>>> even for TLUD's to keep even poor consumers interested in them.
>>>>>> We know vetiver grass has the highest photosynthetic activity of any
>>>>>> plant, making it the most renewable energy source on the planet.
>>>>>> We just have to densify the grass into pellets at a cost that people
>>>>>> can afford. The only way we can do this is to eliminate the cost of
>>>>>> diesel fuel to run the generator to make the pellets.
>>>>>> We are planning on using a downdraft gasifier for gas to accomplish
>>>>>> this. We just have to perfect this process and size it for a
>>>>>> portable pelleting plant that can be taken to the fields they
>>>>>> grow it.
>>>>>> When we perfect this it will be capable to work everywhere in the
>>>>>> world that needs clean cook stoves.
>>>>>> If you want to see what we are doing check out
>>>>>> http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/grass-energy
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/sustainable-path-on-how-to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael E. MahowaldPresident
>>>>>> Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:43:31 -0600
>>>>>> From: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>>> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org; biochar at yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: [Stoves] The wood and char and fuel "debate" (was a long
>>>>>> time ago called Re: Request for technology proposals - Clean Stove
>>>>>> Initiative, Indonesia)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Crispin, Ron and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is interesting reading the back and forth between Ron and
>>>>>> Crispin. I emphasize two paragraphs from Crispin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/24/2014 10:10 AM, Crispin Pembert-Pigott wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There
>>>>>> is no dispute between us whatsoever as to the energy
>>>>>> consumption: the energy remaining in the char represents
>>>>>> energy not liberated from the fuel consumed.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> important question is not what we want, but what the
>>>>>> customer of the test result wants. They are not
>>>>>> asking how
>>>>>> much energy was used when cooking, they asked how much
>>>>>> fuel
>>>>>> was consumed. The answer is of course different if
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> char remaining and that char is not 'fuel' to the same
>>>>>> stove
>>>>>> for the next fire.
>>>>>> For the vast majority of "customers"
>>>>>> (including governments that
>>>>>> want to reduce or reverse deforestation), the important
>>>>>> question is
>>>>>> "how much wood is burned." The interests are highly
>>>>>> related to
>>>>>> WOOD, specifically related to TREES, not even counting sawdust
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> goes into pellets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, because TLUD stoves are VERY GOOD at burning NON-wood
>>>>>> biomass,
>>>>>> the wood saved can be 100%. And we still get the char.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Concerning fuel and wood and non-wood and char and other such
>>>>>> measurements, the real problems can come from rankings and
>>>>>> Tiers and
>>>>>> o
>>>>>> ther reports that could give excellent stoves some poor results
>>>>>> because the "authorities" are defining fuel as being exclusively
>>>>>> wood, as in trees and woodlands that need to be protected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we could get past that "imposed intellectual construct" of
>>>>>> fuel
>>>>>> being wood, we could make more progress about some types of
>>>>>> biomass
>>>>>> stoves being even better than good for the environment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rest assured that the advocates of alcohol and kerosene and
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> NON-biomass fuels are pointing out that their stoves help
>>>>>> minimize
>>>>>> deforestation/enviromental degradation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Biomass that is NOT WOOD needs to be recognized as being
>>>>>> favorable
>>>>>> for saving trees, and credit given to the stoves that can use
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> non-wood biomass fuels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AND that recognition and credit needs to be EXPLICITLY STATED
>>>>>> IN THE
>>>>>> REPORTS ABOUT FUEL CONSUMPTION.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In some ways, this is all just another discussion about why the
>>>>>> reported results of any stove testing need much explanation
>>>>>> (which
>>>>>> is usually not provided) and why the results are so easy to
>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>> as being poorly related to the realities of people and their
>>>>>> stoves
>>>>>> and their fuels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope we can do better in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> (still another week to go on my vacation trip to Brazil,
>>>>>> so I probably will not be sending replies.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>>>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>>>>> site:
>>>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>>>> site:
>>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>>> site:
>>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bjarne Laustsen
>>> Director
>>> Kiwia & Laustsen Limited
>>> P.O. Box 285
>>> Karatu, Tanzania
>>> phone +255 787295684
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
>>> site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nolbert Muhumuza
>>
>> President & Chief Operations Officer
>> Awamu Biomass Energy Ltd.
>> P.O. Box 40127, Nakawa
>> Kampala - Uganda.
>>
>> Mobile: +256-776-346724
>> Skype: nolbertm
>> www.awamu.ug
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>
>>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 18:20:46 +0100
From: "Energies Naturals C.B." <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cuber and size of densifying machines.
Message-ID: <20140307182046.6f21d88ede50845c20184675 at gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Michael,
there is no hammer mill on the Ecoworxx pelletizers. It uses a rasping drum which is o.k.for wood chunks and others, but grass needs different preparation.
And there is no way of getting 250 kg out of the biggest Ecoworxx!The press has only 7.5 kW.
For 250 kg you want a pelletizer with at least 18 kW + a hammer mill or some other kind of size reducer.
Straw bale tub grinders, which are able to bring the original vetiver down to cm size, are better.
The old forage cutters with rotating blades could be a good help and they are very straightforeward and easy to maintain. Cutting also takes much less energy than grinding in a hammer mill.
Just keep your fingers out of the blades...
I remember writing a post about the forage cutters some time ago.Check this manufacturer :
http://www.agroorga.com/Web/orgo/htm/picadoras.htm
How dry can you get the grass easily? Humidity is very important to pelletizing, a bit less so for cubing.
By the way, a pelletizer like the Ecoworxx can make 12 - 16 - 20 -and 25 mm pellets!
The die just has to be much thicker so as to provide the necessary friction in the larger channels.
Check also the mini Pelleter (mP 18) by Nawrocki www.granulatory.com It is a rugged machine of 18,5 kW. It weighs about 1/2 t and has small wheels. I could arrange a test pressing if you want.
The price is a fraction of the Ecoworxx and it has much more productivity. But you need a crusher/grinder!
Enough for now.
Best regards
Rolf
On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:10:52 -0600
Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rolf Crispin Paul Willem and all,
> Thanks for all of your input and suggestions, this is all really good information.
> Although the Ecoworxx may not be as good as it specifies it's design of hammer mill to pellet is good and makes it easier to use.Using syngas from gasified pellets to run engines that directly drive the hammer mill and pelletizer, forgetting turning it to electricity. This is very good, I think we can run large alternators from the same machine to run small conveyors and bag sealers.It will be easier to make smaller complete units to get to the fields, but we would still like to size everything on a trailer that can produce at least a continuous 250kg / hour.
> Our grass is now at Hudson Valley Grass Energy waiting for testing. They are going to pelletize it first but said their machinery is at a farm that is buried in snow,, so it may be a while?
> Perfecting the gasification of these vetiver pellets to fuel our equipment is most important for HRI's program. We know this is the only way we can get price for pellets low enough to compete with charcoal and pay farmers for grass.
> When we know it is possible to fuel the equipment from pellets. We will create the best mobile pelletizers to get into the fields.
> Michael E. MahowaldPresident
> Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
>
> > Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 00:18:35 +0100
> > From: energiesnaturals at gmx.de
> > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cuber densifying How to make the fuel to run "debate"
> >
> >
> > Michael and all,
> >
> > the Ecoworxx presses are a good idea, but my experiences with them are not as good.
> > I have been the spanish distributor for Ecoworxx and although I hate to say this, I am quite deceived both by the machines and by the ones who build them.
> > This is not only my opinion, but that of a few other country's distributors.
> > They produce by far not the 50 -70 kg/h (case of the PM 22)the catalog claims- Perhaps with old bread or some other foodstuff, but no way with lignocellulosic biomass. We could never get more than 15 kg/h out of them. And there were more problems.
> >
> > They sell them for close to ? 20.000,- + VAT now.More questions?
> >
> > Rolf
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 12:27:39 -0600
> > Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Willem and all, I love the looks of this eccoworxx machine and really would like to here more about it after you test it.This size unit and the amount of power it needs could easily be implemented in areas where they have a lot of biomass available.
> > > No matter what machine you get to make a fuel there will be costs of producing it. No matter if it is a cuber, slugger or pelletizer if you have to buy diesel fuel or electricity where they don't have it in remote areas none of these will be affordable and stop charcoal use or destruction of trees and environment.
> > > We believe the pellets are still the best option for the cook stoves and transportation of fuel. We just have to use this fuel for making the pellets.
> > > If you think small and cannot except that poor people can do it. There is little hope for improving there lives. I know they can learn new technologies that are expensive to start up.
> > > I added the eccoworxx to our website http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/permanent-pellet-factories
> > >
> > > Michael E. MahowaldPresident
> > > Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
> > >
> > > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:44:17 +0100
> > > From: wk at tmgroup.nl
> > > To: psanders at ilstu.edu; stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org; don at donlotter.net; michael.deutmeyer at greenresources.no
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no longer Re: The wood and char and fuel "debate" )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Re: [Stoves] Cuber and size of densifying machines. (no longer Re: The wood and char and fuel "debate" )
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear all
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have done tests with HD briquettes made of hardwood sawdust in the Philips Stove. They burn excellent however getting them started is difficult. I have put the briquettes on top of burning pellets, which works excellent as the airflow is fine. Adding pellets on burning pellets does not work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have seen a Indian hydraulic press making 25 mm briquettes, that might even be better ??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good to share all this knowledge as we are firm believers of avoiding wood and built up a sustainable renewable fuel business. I am doing testing with the rose waste in two weeks using the ecoworxx pellet machine. See http://ecoworxx.com/pm-22-e/ I have seen this machine working: perfect !!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please find attached a quote for a chinese pellet machine which runs off the tractor PTO. The price is 1275 $ C+F Dar es Salam. At that price not a big risk to test.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Willem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Op 06-03-14 16:02, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> schreef:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Stovers and other Friends,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am in agreement with Bjarne. It appears (yet still to be totally proven) that the larger diameter (such as 60 mm = 2.3 inches) densified biomass is probably a better way to proceed into larger production with mechanization in the developing societies.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Note that "densified" is with higher compression (including the crushing of cell structures and the "melting" of lignin that gives the glossy outer coating on DENSIFIED pellets and "processed logs" or densified briquettes).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Note: IMO, the term "briquette" is used differently by various people who do not distinguish between the high-density and the low-density briquettes and the processes to make them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Similarly, there can be high and low density "pucks" or disks or wedges. Maybe HD and LD can be used to distinguish between the two main types.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For example, LD briquettes and pucks are made with manual presses and jacks for lifting vehicles. These LD processed fuels can also be great as fuel (especially for TLUD gasifiers) if that is what the budget and circumstances allow for production. Bjarne and I are NOT commenting against the LD precessed fuels. We are commenting about the HD processed fuels, and are stating that the larger (60mm) diameter fuels are probably the more practical (lower cost and less maintenance) way to make HD processed biomass fuels. Clearly pellets (HD and about 6 to 8 mm diameter) have an important role and are commercially viable, but that is in the context of developed and affluent societies.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As I have commented before, when the HD processed biomass "log" is extruded by a ram press (not by an auger), the log is essentially a series of disks that are jammed together. The disks come out hot and slide along a cooking rack perhaps 5 meters long. And while still hot (meaning closer to the press), they can be gently tapped and they will break apart into very clean disks measuring about 60 mm diameter and 10 to 15 mm thick. If the fuel user needs smaller pieces at the time to cooking the meal, the disks can be easily broken by hand or hit with a rock or piece of log to become halves and quarters. For Awamu in Uganda, two different makers of HD "logs" have provided us with disks when requested.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also stated in earlier messages, inside a TLUD gasifier, the disks can be place vertically (on edge) and have a superior air flow than if they are placed horizontally.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Comments in support or contrary would be greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > >
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >
> > > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> > >
> > > On 3/6/2014 1:32 AM, Bjarne Laustsen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To Paul and others
> > >
> > > Fuel supply can be big business but it does not need to be.
> > >
> > > We have been making pellets for gasification stoves.
> > >
> > > The pellets in itself work very well if they are in sizes from 6 mm or 8 mm in diameter, they have been burning very good in our gasification stoves.
> > >
> > > The problems in relation with pellets for gasification stoves are how to find good and sustainable pellet presses for producing the pellets.
> > >
> > > The slides from the presentation from Crane Wang MUYANG illustrate this very well. Because the pellet press they shows are big and expensive equipments that will do a good job, however they are outside the financial reach of most of us.
> > >
> > > We have experiences with some of the smaller and cheaper pellets mills, and they are not able to produce pellets in a sustainable way. They are designed for feed pellet production, and they aretherefore not able to produce fuel pellets in an economical way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have noted that in China they are mainly working with pellets for fuel production while in India they are working with briquettes.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For me to see the cuber will still be an to expensive solution.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The solution for us will be to use the Indian type of mechanical piston briquette presses that can make briquettes with diameter of 60 mm and get attached a puck cutter on that so the briquettes are cut out in pucks. Such pucks will be a good fuel for gasification stoves. And the equipment is reasonable in price so it is possible for many to finance such a solution.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > These briquette presses can work with most types of agricultural residues, so we at the same can shift to using renewable biomass for cooking and in this way also contribute to reducing the deforestation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bjarne Laustsen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/5/2014 10:47 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stovers,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Slide #9 of the presentation at the site given below is interesting. Those cubes should work very well in gasifiers of many different sizes.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I was impressed by the other slides that show the very large sizes of the pelletizers and cubers. If supply of raw materials is sufficient, large machines seem so much more appropriate than 100 or 1000 small units. Fuel supply is BIG business.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > >
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >
> > > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/5/2014 9:58 AM, Energies Naturals C.B. wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Michael,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We saw some examples of cubers in a Beijing(?) stove exposition some time ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also check this: http://www.novator.se/bioint/BPUA12Pres/10_BPUA12_Crane_Wang_MUYANG.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hope this helps
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rolf
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:36:47 -0600
> > >
> > > Michael Mahowald <memahowald at hotmail.com> <mailto:memahowald at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are absolutely correct Paul !
> > >
> > > Deforestation happens all over the world with the lack of fire wood.
> > >
> > > There simply is not enough dry sources of trees or waste from them even for TLUD's to keep even poor consumers interested in them.
> > >
> > > We know vetiver grass has the highest photosynthetic activity of any plant, making it the most renewable energy source on the planet. We just have to densify the grass into pellets at a cost that people can afford. The only way we can do this is to eliminate the cost of diesel fuel to run the generator to make the pellets.
> > >
> > > We are planning on using a downdraft gasifier for gas to accomplish this. We just have to perfect this process and size it for a portable pelleting plant that can be taken to the fields they grow it.
> > >
> > > When we perfect this it will be capable to work everywhere in the world that needs clean cook stoves.
> > >
> > > If you want to see what we are doing check out
> > >
> > > http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/grass-energy
> > >
> > > and http://haitireconstruction.ning.com/page/sustainable-path-on-how-to
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael E. MahowaldPresident
> > >
> > > Haiti Reconstruction International952-220-6814
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:43:31 -0600
> > >
> > > From: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >
> > > To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org; biochar at yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Subject: [Stoves] The wood and char and fuel "debate" (was a long time ago called Re: Request for technology proposals - Clean Stove Initiative, Indonesia)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Crispin, Ron and all,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is interesting reading the back and forth between Ron and
> > >
> > > Crispin. I emphasize two paragraphs from Crispin,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/24/2014 10:10 AM, Crispin Pembert-Pigott wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There
> > >
> > > is no dispute between us whatsoever as to the energy
> > >
> > > consumption: the energy remaining in the char represents
> > >
> > > energy not liberated from the fuel consumed.
> > >
> > > The
> > >
> > > important question is not what we want, but what the
> > >
> > > customer of the test result wants. They are not asking how
> > >
> > > much energy was used when cooking, they asked how much fuel
> > >
> > > was consumed. The answer is of course different if there is
> > >
> > > char remaining and that char is not ?fuel? to the same stove
> > >
> > > for the next fire.
> > >
> > > For the vast majority of "customers" (including governments that
> > >
> > > want to reduce or reverse deforestation), the important question is
> > >
> > > "how much wood is burned." The interests are highly related to
> > >
> > > WOOD, specifically related to TREES, not even counting sawdust that
> > >
> > > goes into pellets.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So, because TLUD stoves are VERY GOOD at burning NON-wood biomass,
> > >
> > > the wood saved can be 100%. And we still get the char.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Concerning fuel and wood and non-wood and char and other such
> > >
> > > measurements, the real problems can come from rankings and Tiers and
> > >
> > > o
> > >
> > > ther reports that could give excellent stoves some poor results
> > >
> > > because the "authorities" are defining fuel as being exclusively
> > >
> > > wood, as in trees and woodlands that need to be protected.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If we could get past that "imposed intellectual construct" of fuel
> > >
> > > being wood, we could make more progress about some types of biomass
> > >
> > > stoves being even better than good for the environment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rest assured that the advocates of alcohol and kerosene and other
> > >
> > > NON-biomass fuels are pointing out that their stoves help minimize
> > >
> > > deforestation/enviromental degradation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biomass that is NOT WOOD needs to be recognized as being favorable
> > >
> > > for saving trees, and credit given to the stoves that can use those
> > >
> > > non-wood biomass fuels.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > AND that recognition and credit needs to be EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE
> > >
> > > REPORTS ABOUT FUEL CONSUMPTION.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In some ways, this is all just another discussion about why the
> > >
> > > reported results of any stove testing need much explanation (which
> > >
> > > is usually not provided) and why the results are so easy to ignore
> > >
> > > as being poorly related to the realities of people and their stoves
> > >
> > > and their fuels.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope we can do better in the future.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > (still another week to go on my vacation trip to Brazil,
> > >
> > > so I probably will not be sending replies.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> > >
> > > Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> > >
> > > Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> > >
> > > Website: www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > >
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >
> > > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > >
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
> > >
> > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Stoves mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> > >
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> > >
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> >
> > --
> > Energies Naturals C.B. <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> >
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 12:37:57 -0500
From: Jock Gill <jg45 at icloud.com>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: Hugh McLaughlin <hsmclaughlin at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] upside down bathtub drain effect
Message-ID: <DA420723-3ACC-44D5-83D2-2A3C5592DD3B at icloud.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Richard,
At my age, I would be very lucky indeed to have such nice looking legs ;-) I probably have 40 plus more years of wear and tear on my legs. And they show it.
I agree 100% about the TASTE of food cooked over real wood gas. Fantastic. Slow cooking at 300 degrees improves most everything too.
As for deflectors, I like a KISS KISS approach [Keep it simple, stupid]. I do not attempt to get the famous blue flames that look like natural gas.
I use three off the shelf washers, sized to fit the can in use, as per the the photo:
The two cans making the unit in the photo are 3 lb coffee cans. The feedstock is a jumble of extruded grass tablets. The primary air is assisted by a variable speed fan. The secondary air is via a gap between the TLUD [bottom can] and the draft can on top. I no longer use holes for secondary air. As Hugh McLaughlin says, holes have too many edges.
The three deflectors appear to increase residence time and turbulence in the combustion zone for a clean burning air/fuel mix.
The simplicity of this approach makes it useful for a wide range of feedstocks. It just works. Not fussy at all.
For more detail, pls. see: http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/archives/1622
Cheers,
Jock
Jock Gill
P.O. Box 3
Peacham, VT 05862
Cell: (617) 449-8111
google.com/+JockGill
:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:
Via iPad
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org> wrote:
>
> Is those are your legs ; I have to ask what the water is hitting below?
>
> On the diffuser,
> Kobus Venter, John Davies and I also tried to diffuse the gassified flame on Kobus' then emerging gassier stove, (~2004/5), by replicating a normal LP gas burner top. We simply cut off end of a tin can (sides were about 1" high--enough to just fit into the stove top) . We added a series of ?" dia holes not on the top but on all round the side wall tin can.
>
> The flame jets actually turned white -blue not unlike a regular gas stove but that took some fudzing to get fuel air balance right : The steaks tasted of the wood and charcoal that the briquettes were made of; incredible! The only problem was that to achieve this was tricky and unstable. Very fussy issues, such as to fuel load rate, air flow, bed thickness and all the other things you all of the gassification fraternity get into. I hang on the sidelines waiting for the perfect solution, perhaps for Godot.
>
> Richard/ Nicaragua
> Pietermaritsburg and Paulshoft South africa ~2005
> <KV stove RS&JD around burner,11,05.jpeg>
> <AUT_5403.jpeg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <AUT_5404.jpeg>
>
>
>
>
> <KVstove,steaks at start 11,05.jpeg>
>
>
> <AUT_5405.jpeg>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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