[Stoves] GACC Stove Summit is LIVE NOW Thurs

Fri Nov 21 19:03:50 CST 2014

Crispin and list:

	This is mostly to ask for more data.   I am planning a different message to think through all that I heard in the CAGG meeting.

On Nov 20, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear Friends
> 
> Thanks to Ron for the itemised report. 
> 
> LPG is the most expensive, least affordable, least distributable, ‎most regulated, highest investment, highest distribution network cost, highest skill requiring, highest stove technology demanding cooking solution available on planet earth. 
	[RWL1:   Nothing like this was stated or implied during the webcast.  Can you provide some cites?
> 
> South Africa has 28 National standards dealing only with LPG stoves and fuels and distribution equipment. 
	[RWL1a:   Anything there that should impact the future of what this list should be discussing?  Any specific cite?
> 
> ‎Why wouldn't we promote LPG as a solution to indoor air pollution? Is it not the obvious way to go?
	[RWL2:  Being all the negatives of your second sentence is one reason not “to go”.  I take this to be sarcastic?
> 
> Greenhouse gases from charcoal making? Seriously? Is that what caused the 0.001 degree rise in the average global temperature over the past 18 years and one month? We should perhaps recall that wood literally grows on trees and is made of 90% CO2 (on a mass basis). Unharvested, unused wood rots to methane. What is the comparative GHG number?
	[RWL3:   a)  Are you denying the Kirk Smith claim on char-making providing a lot of (unnecessary) GHGs?   A cite?
 		b)  The .001 degree needs a cite.  Focussing on 18 years air surface temperature for only one of a dozen different energy imbalance measures is not very helpful.  I see something almost every day on 2014 likely having the highest global temperature in the last 100-150 years.  
		c)  The issue about making char in the field is mostly one of illegality - generally not re-planting.  Are you arguing that present char production is sustainable on average?
		d)   Don’t understand your last question on “comparative GHG number.  Can you rephrase?

> 
> The old saw about 'fan stoves' was discussed here a couple of days ago. If we don't get the message out about really clean burning non-fan stoves then we deserve what we hear. Right?
	[RWL4:    I have heard this from more than Prof.  Smith.  I don’t recall this topic “a couple of days ago”.   Anyone able to give a specific cite?
> 
> Fan stoves are the most expensive options available requiring the most infrastructure to build and provide the highest cost cooking available while still using wood fuels. ‎What will the ND stove builders do about advertising themselves and their capabilities? If the TLUD crowd do not address the overall fuel consumption issue (using as much or more raw fuel per cooking session as an open fire) the fuel saving argument will be lost. I have told you and told you. Being able to say 'I told you so,' does not please me at all.  If you don’t get out stoves that are clean and save FUEL (not 'energy') you are not getting out of the starting gate. 
	[RWL5:  a)  One benefit of a fan stove (at least with TLUDs where is where I see them promoted) is having a fine control on power output.  Especially able to get larger TDRs.  I have heard $ numbers like a $5 increase (the fan/blower itself costing less than $2 for Paul Olivier’s quite low cost system).
	b)   Being part of the “TLUD crowd”, I have to remind you that being able to sell the produced char is unique in the stove world.  Making money is more important than saving money for many of us.  Using the char as biochar rather than selling it will make more sense for many (and is now being done in several char-making stove programs.
	You are perhaps saying that biomass for stoves is in perpetual short supply.  Not true if we start planting instead of stealing feedstock.  The world will be a much better place with a big effort at reforestation.  On can have (must have) both increased stock and increased flows.
> 
> W itness what is happening before your eyes. ‎The improved stove sector is being taken over by the LPG and electricity sector. It will involve massive, beyond imagination loans to poor countries for infrastructure and it hinges on saving a claimed 4+ million ‘premature deaths' per year.
	[RWL6:   This is key.  This is the subject of my next message.  I am not yet ready to agree on “taken over” or “behind imagination loans”.  But yes the rationale is all on saved lives.  We on this list have not been making the needed case for not  being “taken over.”
> 
> Let's assume it is true. How much investment will be required per life saved?  How does this compare with other opportunities to save lives? We will soon find out, I am sure.
	[RWL7:   I am not aware that anyone has made this investment calculation.  I guess that the sellers of LPG should have little trouble finding the necessary funding - not needed from GACC.  Anyone know?  What I remember from the finance part of the discussions was that funding would be heading to stoves, not the ability to add more LPG.  I think LPG burners are quite inexpensive already - and not much need for R&D.  (True?)  The issue seems to be on cost and assuredness of supply.  But I need help here.  Anyone an expert on where the funding is apt to come from if LPG is really a major goal of any country?    The average wood-consuming stove user is apparently apt to have more than one stove now.  Having and using a wood-version isn’t going to stop even if LPG stoves are in 100% of all the world’s homes.  There is plenty of work for this list.
	I am pretty sure that wood-consuming stove proponents will fail if they imply that saving any of the 4 Million lives is not worth the expense.  I am going to try to put down some more thoughts on this soon.  Obviously (I think) stoves that are both much cleaner and much more efficient (time and money saving/earning) are in the pipeline.  I doubt many believe that a switch to 100% LPG (or electricity) is going to happen in the near term.  There remain plenty of things on this list to do.

Ron

> 
> Most interesting. Yes indeed. 
> Crispin
> 
> From: Ronal W. Larson
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 20:26
> To: Discussion of biomass
> Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] GACC Stove Summit is LIVE NOW Thurs
> 
> Paul cc List
> 
> Thanks for the alert.  I missed a few minutes at the beginning and during the meeting, but think I caught most.  This is to hope to hear what others thought who might have listened in.
> 
> Some of my thoughts  (random order - lots missed as I didn’t keep notes;  there are likely going to be tapes available):
> 
> a.  Was well run - a good cross section of stove-knowledgeable folk - many from outside the US.  The head of US EPA,  Gina McArthy,  gave a strong talk; she has been active in stoves longer than I realized (she and many others emphasized gender issues).  She made brief mention of EPA stove testing, but I didn’t hear EPA’s name again.
> 
> b.   I was surprised and disappointed that a majority of the dialog was on switching to LPG stoves.   I never once heard the terms “rocket” and “TLUD”.   There were quite a few comments about needing to make major changes in LPG industry to get a switch to LPG.
> 
> c.  Some also on switching to electrically powered stoves - but maybe a realization that will take more time.  Electricity was not a focus here.  LNG dominant probably because it is already pretty widely used and is claimed to be clean.  I need to learn more about LNG stoves - both emissions and costs.  I never heard the words “alcohol stoves”.
> 
> d.  I never once heard the word biochar, and really little on climate (LPG and electricity not going to be climate-helpful).  Kirk Smith noted that LPG cooking by the poor would not be a serious climate issue. 
> 
> e.  Kirk Smith made a very strong statement about how horrible traditional charcoal “mound” kilns are in releasing global warming gases.  If anyone knows of specific GHG release data, I’d appreciate hearing that.  But overall, I heard little negative on the use of charcoal, except a few comments on deforestation.  Kirk said wood burning stoves would have to be fan driven and use pellets to meet (recent, new) WHO stove (?) guidelines.  These were referred to frequently, but I don’t have a specific cite.  Maybe http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/en/  and  http://www.who.int/indoorair/en/   ?
> 
> f.  The term 4.3 million annual deaths was given often.  This was an indoor air quality meeting.  It would be a big help to compare LPG and tier 4 performance on particulates. Anyone have that?
> 
> g.  Only a few comments re solar cookers  (and I think that sad).
> 
> h.  One whole panel on the ISO process and Tiers.  I was surprised that one stove representative was saying they would have trouble getting to Tier 3.
> 
> i.  Another panel on financing.  We may see some big money for stove companies.  A good many comments on the need for large company involvement.
> 
> j.  Some good leads at https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cookstoves?src=hash .
> 
> k.  Tomorrow is the day for trying to build up a larger pot of funds.  I think that is a closed (non-video) meeting.
> 
> l.   Some interesting data on how much better women are than men in selling improved stoves.
> 
> m.  One specialist (former student of Kirk Smith) on health aspects of stoves - with follow-up question asked by Nat Mulcahy. 
> 
> n.   Overall - this was an important stove meeting - but not much in line with dialog on this list (which never/rarely talks of LNG).
> 
> Other thoughts?
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 20, 2014, at 6:04 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Stovers,
>> 
>> The Cookstoves Future Summit is LIVE on the internet today.
>> 
>> Go to the
>>> 
>>> http://www.cleancookstoves.org/
>> scroll to the Tweets section and read:
>>> 
>>> Clean Cookstoves @cookstoves
>>> The stoves & fuels exhibition @ #Cookstoves Future Summit. Watch the livestream @8:30am ET http://ow.ly/EAEwG  http://ow.ly/i/7EoZe
>>> 
>> And access via one of the two URLs that are listed.    Follow instructions to follow the account on "Livestream".
>> 
>> Watch for messages to all Stoves via our Stoves Listserv.
>> 
>> Paul
>> -- 
>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   
>> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
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