[Stoves] Difficulties about standards and goals .. was...Re: Guatemala meeting about tests and standards

Ronal W. Larson rongretlarson at comcast.net
Wed Nov 26 13:36:50 CST 2014 

Dean, list and ccs

	1.  Thanks for this important clarification.

	2.  Can you give a best URL to better understand the WHO numbers you have given below.  Especially on the “why”.  (I looked a while back and gave up.)

	3.  I guess that Professor Smith would say that the WHO numbers you give below are too lenient.  What is known on how to specify a “protecting health” PM number?   (I assume that this is the key variable behind LPG/electricity/stove discussions.)

	4.   I recall ETHOS presentations that have show how difficult it is for epidemiology statistics on biomass stove combinations to provide real health improvements,  But is there a future “Tier 5” PM number that Kirk would say is acceptable on health grounds?  Is there a best technical publication on this?  (all questions of course for anyone.)

Ron



On Nov 25, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> The Tier 4 called "Indoor Emissions for PM" is close to the WHO guideline so biomass stoves that meet that criteria are seen as protecting health by the WHO.That's for unvented stoves.
> 
> The Tier 4 Indoor Emissions for PM metric is "less than 2mg/minute". The WHO guideline for stoves with chimneys is much higher (7mg/minute) so the WHO guideline is a lot more lenient and many biomass stoves meet this level of performance (TLUDs, fan stoves, etc.).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> Dear Ranyee,    (and to all Stovers)
> 
> Thank you for your reply and also thanks for all the hard work done by you and the various committees.  We know that the work is not easy.   And most of us (including guys like me) have chosen to not be on those working groups, although we are aware that individuals can still join them.   
> 
> We who are not on the committees hear of the current status of standards, and attempt to present our stoves in light of those standards.   We always hear that the standards are not finalized.   But we do not know the degree of "finalization" that exists.
> 
> There is a vast difference between "finalization that is almost at acceptance" and "finalization that is likely NOT to happen" for some test or other.   We simply do not know, but from my perspective (based on my past experiences at numerous Stove Camps and ETHOS meetings and elsewhere), the Tiers system and the WBT have been perceived as "close to acceptance."   But that seems LESS certain now than in past months and years.  Personally, I do not like surprises, so I much prefer having the realities and options out in the open.
> 
> Related, but on a slightly different note, I have some concerns about the stated importance of standards and the realities of implementations of standards.  At the GACC Cookstove Summit 4 days ago, three statements struck me.   One is the declaration that 20 million improved cookstoves have been accomplished / distributed thus far (by 2014).   We all applaud that accomplishment.   
> 
> The second statement was by Ben West who pointed out that most of the improves stoves thus far have been at the Tier 1 and Tier 2 levels, with no major numbers (nor industrial production) of stoves in Tiers 3 and 4.  That appears to be true and needed to be said, and repeated here.
> 
> The third statement refers to the evident medical fact that even the current definition of Tier 4 stoves will not accomplish the desired health impacts, which can be attained by LPG and electric stoves.
> 
> Ouch!!  We, the stoves community, are accomplishing our goals while not accomplishing our goals.   And we can ask whether or not another 20 to 30 million stoves at Tiers 1 and 2 are on target or not.   And which targets?   100 million by 2020?    or the health impact to stop 4 million deaths per year?   
> 
> This is not an easy situation.   To do nothing would be far worse.   To do only the near-perfect is not plausible.   To do the best we can is the only reasonable alternative.   And there are different opinions about what is "the best we can do."  
> 
> I want to say "thank you" to everyone who is working on improvement of cooking stoves for those in need.   Everyone includes the donors, administrators, finance and business management, production line, innovators, sales, and also the stove users.   We all have much work cut out for us to do!!!!
> 
> Paul
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD  
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu   
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> On 11/24/2014 7:30 AM, Ranyee Chiang wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> There is a general summary of the meeting available here, and how the outcomes of Guatemala fit with the overall progress:  http://www.cleancookstoves.org/blog/progress-report-october-2014.html.  The detailed summaries of each Working Group’s discussion is only available to Working Group members, since there are many discussions and decisions that are in progress.  Please see this website for information about how to join the standards process:  http://www.cleancookstoves.org/our-work/standards-and-testing/guidelines-and-standards/
>> 
>> Regarding laboratory testing, I also would like to provide a clarification on some earlier responses to this thread.  Because the discussions are still ongoing, please be aware that specific decisions have not been finalized.  We do have general agreement about the approach that we will take in working together.  There are no methods that have been rejected.  And there are no methods that have been accepted.  The general agreement is to work together and to take the best components of test methods and develop a robust framework and procedures for testing.  In fact, I encourage people to look at the vast commonalities that already exist among different groups.  There are far more similarities than there are differences.  We will also continue the discussion on how best to communicate results to both technical and non-technical audiences.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Ranyee
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>> Date: November 21, 2014, 7:29:26 PM EST
>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Stoves] Guatemala meeting about tests and standards
>> Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> 
>> Dear Stovers,
>> 
>> There was a meeting about tests and standards of stoves in Guatemala a month or so ago.   Is there any summary report?  Or could those who were there make some comments, please.
>> 
>> I assume there is a list somewhere of who are on the ISO / WBT / IWA / XYZ committee.   And how many showed up?
>> 
>> Nothing was said about this at the GACC 2 day meeting just concluded, so I thought I would ask.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> -- 
>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> 
>> 
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