[Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 60, Issue 10 fyi

Geoff Thomas wind at iig.com.au
Tue Aug 18 20:55:47 CDT 2015


In Australia, and I guess probably elsewhere, timber mills have historically built these beehive/dalek shaped burners for the off cuts, sawdust etc. (what a waste from the Biochar point of view) perhaps 10 metres high, slits all the way around to get the process swirling, sort of overlapping slits, to push the air one way only - I guess you would call that ambient? - certainly burnt Everything leaving very little ash.
There was also a fireplace on the market called Swirlfier, again a pyramid with slits around the outside, - very dramatic amount of heat produced, any way I had a co-op at a burnt out timber mill (insurance the last stage of profitability) and asked by a local school to build them an incinerator, so using the huge resource of old burner steel lying around the place I designed and built a much flatter shaped - still pyramid with overlapping slits, but bigger and steeper longer slits, 1 metre high nearly 3 metres wide maybe 1 metre hole at the top to throw all the garbage in, - wow, huge spiral coming out of the top, probably 2 to 4 metres high, such energy and roaring and light.
Everything got burnt,  almost no ash the teachers were very happy, - it was a Steiner school, they said “it makes the Elementals happy”, for me, that was a bonus.
Cheers,
Geoff.
 
>  On 19 Aug 2015, at 4:00 am, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
>      improvement project (Paul Anderson)
>   2. Re: Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
>      improvement project (Dean Still)
>   3. Re: Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
>      improvement project (Paul Anderson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:10:59 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> 	<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
> 	improvement project
> Message-ID: <55D29433.1010406 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Julien,
> 
> You do nice work!!
> 
> There can be at least one advantageous use of the tall ambient swirl, 
> and that is to make a woodgas lantern with a tall, bright yellow flame 
> inside an appropriate glass cylinder (such as for kerosene or gas 
> lamps).   And in such a device, there is not much purpose in turning 
> down to a low flame, so the problem of flame extinguishing is not an issue.
> 
> The concept of a tall flame to give light is not new.   But you are 
> identifying an improved way to make the flame tall and bright.
> 
> I hope that you can enlighten us further!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Paul
> 
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> 
> On 8/17/2015 8:39 PM, Julien Winter wrote:
>> Hello all;
>> 
>> Not all swirls are created equal.  Kirk has created a swirl high up in 
>> the flame to improve the final mixing of reactants and get a clean 
>> burnout.
>> 
>> Another kind of swirl is caused by an ambient swirl in the secondary 
>> air.  This starts a rotation in the flame right at its base.  The 
>> result in nature is called a fire whirl or fire tornado.  In this 
>> case, gases move to the middle, and vertically 'stretch out the flow 
>> lines' into a slow spiral with a flow that  is more laminar than 
>> turbulent.   The result is a taller flame.   There are some good 
>> YouTube vids of this phenomenon.
>> 
>> I did some experiments on ambient swirls last year, and doubled the 
>> height of the gas flame.  That wasn't exactly what I wanted.  I also 
>> found that a swirling flame was more prone to go out at low 
>> gasification rates than a non swirling flame.
>> 
>> I have attached a couple of photographs of my gear.  I had some 
>> collars with vanes that fitted over the outside of tin can risers with 
>> holes for secondary air.  I could modify the ambient swirl by changing 
>> the angle of the vanes.  In another burner, I had a slit up the side 
>> of the riser as well.
>> 
>> A little ambient swirl can be useful to keep the flame from running up 
>> the side walls of the riser, and to encourage secondary air to move 
>> toward the center of the burner, but I am not a big fan of a strong 
>> ambient swirl, unless something can be done to create turbulence.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Julien.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Julien Winter
>> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> 
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>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:30:35 -0700
> From: Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> 	<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
> 	improvement project
> Message-ID:
> 	<CA+tShZu7wTuxYMzixxfn5HmTKnV97qmu0J6-bmnXoszkdXk0gQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Swirl would look great in a TLUD lantern. But we tried to have no flicker
> so the light for reading would be steady. We wanted a steady column of
> flame.
> 
> See:
> https://stovetecstore.net/product/firefly-lantern-dual-biomass-lanterncookstove/
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Julien,
>> 
>> You do nice work!!
>> 
>> There can be at least one advantageous use of the tall ambient swirl, and
>> that is to make a woodgas lantern with a tall, bright yellow flame inside
>> an appropriate glass cylinder (such as for kerosene or gas lamps).   And in
>> such a device, there is not much purpose in turning down to a low flame, so
>> the problem of flame extinguishing is not an issue.
>> 
>> The concept of a tall flame to give light is not new.   But you are
>> identifying an improved way to make the flame tall and bright.
>> 
>> I hope that you can enlighten us further!!!!!!!!!
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>> 
>> On 8/17/2015 8:39 PM, Julien Winter wrote:
>> 
>> Hello all;
>> 
>> Not all swirls are created equal.  Kirk has created a swirl high up in the
>> flame to improve the final mixing of reactants and get a clean burnout.
>> 
>> Another kind of swirl is caused by an ambient swirl in the secondary air.
>> This starts a rotation in the flame right at its base.  The result in
>> nature is called a fire whirl or fire tornado.  In this case, gases move to
>> the middle, and vertically 'stretch out the flow lines' into a slow spiral
>> with a flow that  is more laminar than turbulent.   The result is a taller
>> flame.   There are some good YouTube vids of this phenomenon.
>> 
>> I did some experiments on ambient swirls last year, and doubled the height
>> of the gas flame.  That wasn't exactly what I wanted.  I also found that a
>> swirling flame was more prone to go out at low gasification rates than a
>> non swirling flame.
>> 
>> I have attached a couple of photographs of my gear.  I had some collars
>> with vanes that fitted over the outside of tin can risers with holes for
>> secondary air.  I could modify the ambient swirl by changing the angle of
>> the vanes.  In another burner, I had a slit up the side of the riser as
>> well.
>> 
>> A little ambient swirl can be useful to keep the flame from running up the
>> side walls of the riser, and to encourage secondary air to move toward the
>> center of the burner, but I am not a big fan of a strong ambient swirl,
>> unless something can be done to create turbulence.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Julien.
>> 
>> --
>> Julien Winter
>> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> 
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email addressstoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> 
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> 
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dean Still
> Executive Director
> Aprovecho Research Center
> PO Box 1175
> 76132 Blue Mountain School Road
> Cottage Grove, OR 97424
> (541) 767-0287
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:21:32 -0500
> From: Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> 	<stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Request to get partners in a possible TLUD stove
> 	improvement project
> Message-ID: <55D34D7C.7060302 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Dean,
> 
> Good observation.   I am not sure how much flicker is produced in 
> Julien'a arrangement.
> 
> About the Firefly, I re-watched the 2 videos.   The night video shows 
> the steady flame while inside the "lense" (glass riser). Flame movement 
> is seen above the pot rests.   If there was another glass riser placed 
> there, the flame would be steady for even a greater distance.   If the 
> additional upper riser was of a sufficiently different diameter than the 
> current riser/lense, it would also be able to be stored by concentric 
> insertions of cylinders.
> 
> Best wishes for success with the Firefly product.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud      Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
> 
> On 8/17/2015 10:30 PM, Dean Still wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> Swirl would look great in a TLUD lantern. But we tried to have no 
>> flicker so the light for reading would be steady. We wanted a steady 
>> column of flame.
>> 
>> See: 
>> https://stovetecstore.net/product/firefly-lantern-dual-biomass-lanterncookstove/
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Dean
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu 
>> <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>>    Julien,
>> 
>>    You do nice work!!
>> 
>>    There can be at least one advantageous use of the tall ambient
>>    swirl, and that is to make a woodgas lantern with a tall, bright
>>    yellow flame inside an appropriate glass cylinder (such as for
>>    kerosene or gas lamps).   And in such a device, there is not much
>>    purpose in turning down to a low flame, so the problem of flame
>>    extinguishing is not an issue.
>> 
>>    The concept of a tall flame to give light is not new. But you are
>>    identifying an improved way to make the flame tall and bright.
>> 
>>    I hope that you can enlighten us further!!!!!!!!!
>> 
>>    Paul
>> 
>>    Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>    Email:psanders at ilstu.edu  <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>    
>>    Skype: paultlud      Phone:+1-309-452-7072  <tel:%2B1-309-452-7072>
>>    Website:www.drtlud.com  <http://www.drtlud.com>
>> 
>>    On 8/17/2015 8:39 PM, Julien Winter wrote:
>>>    Hello all;
>>> 
>>>    Not all swirls are created equal.  Kirk has created a swirl high
>>>    up in the flame to improve the final mixing of reactants and get
>>>    a clean burnout.
>>> 
>>>    Another kind of swirl is caused by an ambient swirl in the
>>>    secondary air.  This starts a rotation in the flame right at its
>>>    base.  The result in nature is called a fire whirl or fire
>>>    tornado.  In this case, gases move to the middle,
>>>    and vertically 'stretch out the flow lines' into a slow spiral
>>>    with a flow that  is more laminar than turbulent.   The result is
>>>    a taller flame.   There are some good YouTube vids of this
>>>    phenomenon.
>>> 
>>>    I did some experiments on ambient swirls last year, and doubled
>>>    the height of the gas flame.  That wasn't exactly what I wanted. 
>>>    I also found that a swirling flame was more prone to go out at
>>>    low gasification rates than a non swirling flame.
>>> 
>>>    I have attached a couple of photographs of my gear.  I had some
>>>    collars with vanes that fitted over the outside of tin can risers
>>>    with holes for secondary air.  I could modify the ambient swirl
>>>    by changing the angle of the vanes.  In another burner, I had a
>>>    slit up the side of the riser as well.
>>> 
>>>    A little ambient swirl can be useful to keep the flame from
>>>    running up the side walls of the riser, and to encourage
>>>    secondary air to move toward the center of the burner, but I am
>>>    not a big fan of a strong ambient swirl, unless something can be
>>>    done to create turbulence.
>>> 
>>>    Cheers,
>>>    Julien.
>>> 
>>>    -- 
>>>    Julien Winter
>>>    Cobourg, ON, CANADA
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    Stoves mailing list
>>> 
>>>    to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>    stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org  <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> 
>>>    to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>    http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> 
>>>    for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>>    http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Stoves mailing list
>> 
>>    to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>    stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>    <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> 
>>    to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>    http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>>    for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
>>    site:
>>    http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dean Still
>> Executive Director
>> Aprovecho Research Center
>> PO Box 1175
>> 76132 Blue Mountain School Road
>> Cottage Grove, OR 97424
>> (541) 767-0287
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> 
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
> 
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> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 60, Issue 10
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