[Stoves] Rights about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves]
Ronal W. Larson
rongretlarson at comcast.net
Sun Sep 13 17:25:16 CDT 2015
Dean -
Do you have a way of determining the stove manufacturer for the one than Michael and I purchased?
Have you seen an S&H cost this low before? Would you expect the same ($20) cost in a remote Chinese village for this product (whose size I really don’t know yet?
Anyone making char to your (anyone’s) knowledge with these stove types?
It seems the Chinese may be getting into biochar in a big way - so it would be very helpful to know if char-making stoves are being pushed at all?
Twenty years ago I remember seeing a very heavy outside (Chinese) stove that moved the gas indoors for cooking on several burners. But never anything that seemed like a TLUD - and emphasized char-making.
On Sep 12, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Dean Still <deankstill at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Paul and Ron,
>
> Let's not forget that the modern Chinese stove community has specialized in TLUD type natural draft stoves for more than 20 years. It's just as likely that the stove you ordered was designed in China and is now being sold worldwide. I think it is also sold by SilverFire?
[RWL: I found a similar stove at http://www.silverfire.us/new-for-2014-silverfire-scout-backpacking-bug-out . Appreciably smaller than I expect from the one I bought - but as you note, it could be the same - and I didn’t get as much stoves as I thought.
There is a fair amount of detail here - and somewhat disappointing. For their price (a good bit more than the one direct from China), there should be some means of air control - shouldn’t add more than a buck or two to the price.
I am also looking forward to their instructions on fill.
I also think there could have been a means of adding swirl - for less than another buck.
We’ll see.
>
> Hundreds of millions of natural draft coal burning TLUD type stoves are sold in China. Many manufacturers make biomass fueled forced air stoves like the Tom Reed stove but they are larger to match the big woks.
[RWL: Could they make char (as the Phillips could, but normally didn’t/doesn’t)?
>
> It would be very interesting to learn about the Chinese history of top feed cylindrical combustion chamber with primary and secondary air stoves. The Chinese batch fed primary/secondary air stoves could be hundreds of years old. I don’t know.
[RWL: Yup. Might they have been watching the La Fontaine demo in 1991? Do you have ways to check that out through your own Chinese stove contacts?
Ron
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 10:08 PM, Michael Wittman <michael at blueskybiochar.com> wrote:
> I just ordered one for my stove collection, looking forward to trying it out...
>
> On Sep 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>
>> Paul and list
>>
>> I agree. Thanks to Neil.
>>
>> I also looked at the Chinese version.
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Light-Weight-Wood-Gas-Backpacking-Emergency-Survival-Burning-Camping-Stove-Bag-/261752774359
>>
>> I’m supposed to receive between 12 and 28 days. I don’t know whether the price or the shipping is more amazing ($22.05 total, less than 10% S&H). Seconds?
>>
>> I’ve made many dozen TLUDs. I value my time too highly to think I could come close to this price starting with two tin cans. I’m anxious to see what can get for these prices - and what I would do differently. The two photos I have seen don’t jibe.
>>
>> If anyone else has ordered, lets stay in touch.
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2015, at 2:43 PM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Neil,
>>>
>>> THANK YOU!!!
>>>
>>> I was not aware of the Wildstove or the copycat. Neither were mentioned in Christa Roth's book by GIZ.
>>>
>>> Mention is made that this is a ND (natural draft) device, not FA (forced air). And the Wildwood price of 50 UK pounds is about what was previously paid for the FA Woodgas Campstoves. At that price they are not doing any favors for their customers.
>>>
>>> As you point out, those stoves CAN be operated as TLUD stoves (meaning with top ignition and a migratory pyrolytic front MFP). The video shows standard fire making in the bottom of a container and then adding more fuel, and the utilization of directed secondary air intake.
>>>
>>> Please note that they fail to have any riser (pre-pot chimney effect), which should be explored.
>>>
>>> Your message informs me. Nice to know that they are on the market. But I am rather neutral about these stoves.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website: www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 9/12/2015 2:40 PM, neiltm at uwclub.net wrote:
>>>> On 12 Sep 2015 at 12:00, stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> These cookstoves are not products with high margins for profit. In
>>>>> general, people and companies do NOT copy the products of others unless
>>>>> the prospects of good solid profits are proven, and by definition that
>>>>> means that the originator has proven profitability. People copy
>>>>> success, not effort.
>>>> There is a company in the UK - wildstoves.co.uk who supply woodburning
>>>> stoves of all sorts to the leisure market and who designed their own ND
>>>> wood gas camping stove which can also be used as a TLUD very successfully
>>>> I have found.
>>>> http://wildstoves.co.uk/wood-cooking-stoves/wood-gas-camping-stoves/wild-w
>>>> ood-gas-stove/
>>>>
>>>> It has been extensively 'ripped off' by China directly selling through
>>>> ebay superficially different stoves, notably changing the round holes to
>>>> squares or trapeziums and retaining the original pot support design which
>>>> is actually very good I've found. The prices are a fraction of the
>>>> wildstoves ones, but the quality of construction is excellent in nicely
>>>> finished stainless steel as I have personally discovered.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Light-Weight-Wood-Gas-Backpacking-Emergency-Surviv
>>>> al-Burning-Camping-Stove-Bag-/261752774359?hash=item3cf1ae5ed7
>>>>
>>>> I guess the size of the global leisure market is sufficient to make such
>>>> copying worthwhile at least where the design is simple. In fact there
>>>> seems very little in the way of such products currently available, and
>>>> Tom Reed's original LE fan stove has now ceased production with nothing
>>>> really filling that gap. I can imagine the leisure market receptive to
>>>> some of the designs discussed here which might help such initiatives
>>>> perhaps? I'm receptive to them anyway.
>>>>
>>>> While on the subject, as a leisure user in the UK and europe, using found
>>>> wood in temperate climates often with high moisture content, I have found
>>>> the Reed fan stoves fuel fussy, requiring very dry wood to start and run
>>>> well especially if turning down. Very nice clean burn when suitably dry
>>>> wood is available or can be dried, leaving barely a stain on the bottom
>>>> of the pans, whereas the wildstoves ND stove couldn't be more different.
>>>> It's difficult to measure the rounded diamond shaped holes for area, but
>>>> the primary air appears to be in excess of the secondary air, but the
>>>> result is a stove which is made for damp climate success. It accepts
>>>> fuel the fan stove would make a smoky mess with, and once going is a fair
>>>> old blaze, especially as a TLUD with no possibility of turn down! Great
>>>> for stir fry! Feeding it to sustain the burn can be quite an art, but can
>>>> achieve a more manageable heat. It of course leaves pans black and sooty
>>>> as any open fire would. None the less it is not only visibly cleaner
>>>> than an open fire by virtue of the secondary burn, but so much easier to
>>>> light and sustain than the FD which surprised me for a ND.
>>>>
>>>> I also discovered to my delight when in the Pyrenees with it this summer
>>>> that the small half litre kelly kettle perches on top of it perfectly
>>>> without the pan support, and unlike my previous experiments with making
>>>> or utilising a TLUD base for a kelly kettle, it boils water in a
>>>> comparable time to its own normal fire base, doing so with no or much
>>>> less smoke, thus also civilising it for use in proximity to neighbours.
>>>> Under these conditions, as a TLUD finally the chimney pan support makes
>>>> sense as the unit does not require refuelling for a sufficiently useful
>>>> burn time, and with a strong 'volcano' of flame emerging from the chimney
>>>> there is more useful heat. I'm sure the fuel efficiency is less than for
>>>> the normal fire base, but this can be reversed if also utilising the
>>>> chimney heat. It would be nice to see a comparable stove designed to fit
>>>> the larger kelly kettles if only to extend their neighbourliness, and I
>>>> am currently on the look out for suitable tincanium.
>>>>
>>>> I hope some of my observations might be of interest, but recognise I'm
>>>> probably a bit marginal on this list!
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes, Neil Taylor in England.
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wittman (The Char-man of the Board)
> michael at blueskybiochar.com
> www.blueskybiochar.com
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>
> Biochar's high carbon content and porous composition helps soil to retain water, nutrients, protect soil microbes, and ultimately increase crop yields while growing healthier, more productive, disease-resistant plants. All this while helping combat global climate change by sequestering and stabilizing rich organic carbon in your soil.
>
> Leave your carbon footprint in the garden...
>
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