[Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

Anand Karve adkarve at gmail.com
Sat Aug 13 21:18:03 MDT 2016

Dear Stovers,
we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for
restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video
at www.samuchit.com.

Dr. A.D. Karve

Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)

Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An exhaust
> fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for decades
> in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such "commercial
> cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire increment of
> food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world (collectively) in
> the last sixty years.
> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of a
> store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was
> lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove
> from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said
> something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible
> to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and
> using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows -
> are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind
> followers of published statistics.
> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion - combustion
> temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in  solid fuel
> cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics.
> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In response
> to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
> capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of
> cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid
> or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery
> electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and
> what is the total potential market in 10 years?
> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and
> globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters.
> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of
> Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken
> vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor
> in the mean time, get rich and start sinning.
> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice Cooker
> Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy
> <http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-exports-decline-china-looks-inward-for-growth-selling-made-in-china-goods-to-the-middle-class-1470238429>
> . Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in
> Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban
> China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes
> washers, irons.)
> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years (DALYs)
> from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power is a
> wonderful boon.
> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a huge
> producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances,
> <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indonesia-kitchen-appliances-market-to-grow-at-cagr-16-till-2021-techsci-research-report-588142792.html>
> processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved
> woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and
> on for?
> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples", "tastes."
> Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the meals.
> They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are
> exceptions).
> For a change, we might start talking about service standards, objectives,
> market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving them. That would
> require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as Dr. Kishore said
> in the Up in Smoke news item.
> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for
> PV-induction cooking.
> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper", but
> rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs considered.
> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive
> average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice
> with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30
> USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost
> basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users
> are likely to prefer.
> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking
> with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that
> for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and
> charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas
> (large cities), or eat out.
> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant
> on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet?
> (Xavier Brandao had the right question.)
> Nikhil
> ---------
> (India +91) 909 995 2080
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
>> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to capture
>> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years? That's
>> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
>> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
>> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
>> >
>> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
>> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is becoming
>> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan, for
>> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another battery
>> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
>> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection. (I
>> am
>> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected households
>> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel power
>> in
>> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
>> >batteries.)
>> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
>> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
>> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
>> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
>> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
>> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
>> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
>> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>> AJH
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_
> lists.bioenergylists.org
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160814/fff32f2d/attachment.html>

More information about the Stoves mailing list