[Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

nari phaltan nariphaltan at gmail.com
Sun Aug 14 08:06:39 CDT 2016


By improving the draft it also improved combustion.

Anil

Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
P.O.Box 44
Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
Ph:91-2166-220945/222842
e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com
           nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org

http://www.nariphaltan.org

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 4:08 PM, energiesnaturals <energiesnaturals at gmx.de>
wrote:

> If i am not totally mistaken, the steam injection was to improve the
> draft, not combustion!
> Rolf
>
>
>
>
> Von Samsung-Tablet gesendet
>
> nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> hat geschrieben:
>
> The first use of steam draft to improve combustion was done in steam
> locomotives in 1876! This was a common way to improve combustion thereby
> eliminating tall chimneys for the locomotive boiler.
>
> All the best.
>
> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
> P.O.Box 44
> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
> Ph:91-2166-220945/222842
> e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com
>            nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org
>
> http://www.nariphaltan.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Nice web site and very interesting stove. wondering how all that steam
>> effects combustion. Perhaps the benefits of air flow is greater than loss
>> of heat due to water vapor. Lots of questions but looks to work very well.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Stovers,
>> we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for
>> restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video
>> at www.samuchit.com.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>>
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>>
>> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>>
>> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
>>>
>>> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An
>>> exhaust fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for
>>> decades in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such
>>> "commercial cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire
>>> increment of food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world
>>> (collectively) in the last sixty years.
>>>
>>> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of
>>> a store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was
>>> lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove
>>> from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said
>>> something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible
>>> to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
>>>
>>> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and
>>> using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows -
>>> are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind
>>> followers of published statistics.
>>>
>>> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion -
>>> combustion temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in
>>>  solid fuel cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics.
>>>
>>> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In
>>> response to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
>>> capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
>>>
>>> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of
>>> cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid
>>> or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery
>>> electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and
>>> what is the total potential market in 10 years?
>>>
>>> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and
>>> globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters.
>>>
>>> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of
>>> Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken
>>> vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor
>>> in the mean time, get rich and start sinning.
>>>
>>> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice
>>> Cooker Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy
>>> <http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-exports-decline-china-looks-inward-for-growth-selling-made-in-china-goods-to-the-middle-class-1470238429>
>>> . Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in
>>> Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban
>>> China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes
>>> washers, irons.)
>>>
>>> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years
>>> (DALYs) from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power
>>> is a wonderful boon.
>>>
>>> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a
>>> huge producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances,
>>> <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indonesia-kitchen-appliances-market-to-grow-at-cagr-16-till-2021-techsci-research-report-588142792.html>
>>> processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved
>>> woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and
>>> on for?
>>>
>>> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples",
>>> "tastes." Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the
>>> meals. They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are
>>> exceptions).
>>>
>>> For a change, we might start talking about service standards,
>>> objectives, market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving
>>> them. That would require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as
>>> Dr. Kishore said in the Up in Smoke news item.
>>>
>>> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for
>>> PV-induction cooking.
>>>
>>> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper",
>>> but rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs
>>> considered.
>>>
>>> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive
>>> average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice
>>> with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30
>>> USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost
>>> basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users
>>> are likely to prefer.
>>>
>>> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking
>>> with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that
>>> for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and
>>> charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas
>>> (large cities), or eat out.
>>>
>>> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant
>>> on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet?
>>> (Xavier Brandao had the right question.)
>>>
>>> Nikhil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------
>>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
>>>> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
>>>> capture
>>>> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?
>>>> That's
>>>> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>>>>
>>>> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>>>>
>>>> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
>>>> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
>>>> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
>>>> >
>>>> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
>>>> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is
>>>> becoming
>>>> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan,
>>>> for
>>>> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another
>>>> battery
>>>> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
>>>> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection.
>>>> (I am
>>>> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected
>>>> households
>>>> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel
>>>> power in
>>>> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
>>>> >batteries.)
>>>>
>>>> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
>>>> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
>>>> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
>>>> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
>>>> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
>>>> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
>>>> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
>>>> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>>>>
>>>> AJH
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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