[Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

Traveller miata98 at gmail.com
Sun Aug 21 01:15:24 MDT 2016


Was mis-posted earlier.
-----------
Anil:

Not all combustion is same, USEPA mania notwithstanding.

Large-scale cooking is more efficient in many ways; more importantly,
efficiency values are easily monetized.

Making more efficient stoves for small-scale, irregular, indefinite cooking
- as in daily means for poor households who presumably have to rely on
foraging for fuel or making dung cakes - never made much sense from the
perspective of rural masses.

N

Nikhil Desai
+91 909 995 2080
Skype: nikhildesai888

On Aug 14, 2016, at 1:41 PM, nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:

The first use of steam draft to improve combustion was done in steam
locomotives in 1876! This was a common way to improve combustion thereby
eliminating tall chimneys for the locomotive boiler.

All the best.

Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
P.O.Box 44
Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
Ph:91-2166-220945/222842
e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com
           nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org

http://www.nariphaltan.org

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:

>
>
> Nice web site and very interesting stove. wondering how all that steam
> effects combustion. Perhaps the benefits of air flow is greater than loss
> of heat due to water vapor. Lots of questions but looks to work very well.
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
>
>
> On Aug 13, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Stovers,
> we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for
> restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video
> at www.samuchit.com.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
>
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
>
> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
>>
>> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An
>> exhaust fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for
>> decades in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such
>> "commercial cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire
>> increment of food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world
>> (collectively) in the last sixty years.
>>
>> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of
>> a store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was
>> lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove
>> from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said
>> something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible
>> to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
>>
>> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and
>> using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows -
>> are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind
>> followers of published statistics.
>>
>> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion - combustion
>> temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in  solid fuel
>> cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics.
>>
>> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In
>> response to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
>> capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
>>
>> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of
>> cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid
>> or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery
>> electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and
>> what is the total potential market in 10 years?
>>
>> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and
>> globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters.
>>
>> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of
>> Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken
>> vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor
>> in the mean time, get rich and start sinning.
>>
>> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice
>> Cooker Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy
>> <http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-exports-decline-china-looks-inward-for-growth-selling-made-in-china-goods-to-the-middle-class-1470238429>
>> . Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in
>> Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban
>> China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes
>> washers, irons.)
>>
>> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years (DALYs)
>> from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power is a
>> wonderful boon.
>>
>> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a
>> huge producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances,
>> <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indonesia-kitchen-appliances-market-to-grow-at-cagr-16-till-2021-techsci-research-report-588142792.html>
>> processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved
>> woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and
>> on for?
>>
>> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples",
>> "tastes." Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the
>> meals. They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are
>> exceptions).
>>
>> For a change, we might start talking about service standards, objectives,
>> market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving them. That would
>> require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as Dr. Kishore said
>> in the Up in Smoke news item.
>>
>> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for
>> PV-induction cooking.
>>
>> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper", but
>> rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs considered.
>>
>> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive
>> average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice
>> with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30
>> USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost
>> basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users
>> are likely to prefer.
>>
>> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking
>> with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that
>> for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and
>> charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas
>> (large cities), or eat out.
>>
>> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant
>> on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet?
>> (Xavier Brandao had the right question.)
>>
>> Nikhil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------
>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
>>> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to
>>> capture
>>> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years? That's
>>> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>>>
>>> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>>>
>>> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
>>> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
>>> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
>>> >
>>> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
>>> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is
>>> becoming
>>> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan, for
>>> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another
>>> battery
>>> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
>>> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection. (I
>>> am
>>> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected
>>> households
>>> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel
>>> power in
>>> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
>>> >batteries.)
>>>
>>> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
>>> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
>>> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
>>> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
>>> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
>>> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
>>> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
>>> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>>>
>>> AJH
>>>
>>
>>
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