[Stoves] PV-battery fans (Re: A J Heggie 3 August)

Nariphaltan nariphaltan at gmail.com
Sun Aug 21 03:53:35 MDT 2016


Sorry for the wrong link. It should be. Www.nariphaltan.org/ruralrestaurants.pdf 

Anil K Rajvanshi

Sent from my iPad



> On 21-Aug-2016, at 3:18 PM, Nariphaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hall mark of evolution is size reduction, increase in efficiency and complexity (my quotation). A small biomass stove is thus an oxymoron. Very high efficiency and air pollution control can be achieved in big restaurant stoves. And that is the reason why four years ago I promoted rural restaurants ( www.nariphaltan.org/ruralrestaurants.org ) so that efficient and environmentally sound cooking could be done.
> 
> We learnt this bitter truth while designing small scale gasifiers for rural applications in early 1980s. Till today such gasifiers do not exist though big scale ones are in operation.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Anil
> 
> 
> Anil K Rajvanshi
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> 
> 
>> On 21-Aug-2016, at 12:45 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Was mis-posted earlier. 
>> -----------
>> Anil:
>> 
>> Not all combustion is same, USEPA mania notwithstanding. 
>> 
>> Large-scale cooking is more efficient in many ways; more importantly, efficiency values are easily monetized. 
>> 
>> Making more efficient stoves for small-scale, irregular, indefinite cooking - as in daily means for poor households who presumably have to rely on foraging for fuel or making dung cakes - never made much sense from the perspective of rural masses. 
>> 
>> N
>> 
>> Nikhil Desai
>> +91 909 995 2080
>> Skype: nikhildesai888
>> 
>>> On Aug 14, 2016, at 1:41 PM, nari phaltan <nariphaltan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The first use of steam draft to improve combustion was done in steam locomotives in 1876! This was a common way to improve combustion thereby eliminating tall chimneys for the locomotive boiler.
>>> 
>>> All the best.
>>> 
>>> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>>> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
>>> P.O.Box 44
>>> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
>>> Ph:91-2166-220945/222842
>>> e-mail:nariphaltan at gmail.com
>>>            nariphaltan at nariphaltan.org
>>> 
>>> http://www.nariphaltan.org
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Frank Shields <franke at cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Nice web site and very interesting stove. wondering how all that steam effects combustion. Perhaps the benefits of air flow is greater than loss of heat due to water vapor. Lots of questions but looks to work very well. 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Frank
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear Stovers,
>>>>> we have developed an electricity-less forced draft (ELFD) stove for restaurants. You can watch the working and flame characteristics in a video at www.samuchit.com.
>>>>> Yours
>>>>> A.D.Karve
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ***
>>>>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Nikhil Desai again, in response to Heggie:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. Of course a fan-powered stove can be worth somebody's while. An exhaust fan is worthwhile for ventilation. Both these have been in use for decades in electrified areas, albeit for larger users. But it is such "commercial cooking" that, I am willing to wager, has taken off the entire increment of food/feed/beverage cooking demand in the developing world (collectively) in the last sixty years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Why, a couple of years ago, I found a strange contraption on the side of a store here in my city in India. It looked like a stove but huge, and was lying as junk. When I asked, the storekeeper said it was a diesel stove from the 1940s. I have never seen a diesel stove before or after. He said something about kerosene rationing and how electric fans made it possible to use these diesel stoves in the back room kitchen for snacks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In many geographies (urban and peri-urban), outsourcing the cooking and using electric fans - even if not as exhaust, if there are enough windows - are the first coping mechanisms. Not that you would catch that from blind followers of published statistics. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am not an engineer, but let me put this out for discussion - combustion temperatures and air flows are the most important elements in  solid fuel cooking, followed by fuel and vessel characteristics. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2. "How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?" (In response to my "do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to capture >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years?")
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, why not? What would it take to map out the economic geography of cooking and claim, "Ah, for those areas that can't be supplied with liquid or gaseous fuels, and where PV penetration potential for small battery electricity is high, what would a 200 Wp solar system be able to do, and what is the total potential market in 10 years?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The food markets are increasingly inter-connected, nationally and globally. So are the markets for electric kettles, rice cookers, toasters. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> WE the Missionaries of Dung, Straw, Husk, and Twigs from the Church of Renewable Biomass can complain, "Oh, that's for the rich;  we have taken vows of chastity (no fossil fuels) and poverty (no electricity)." The poor in the mean time, get rich and start sinning. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just today the Wall Street Journal has an amazing story - The Rice Cooker Has Become a Test of China’s Ability to Fix Its Economy. Back 30 years ago, I had computed rice cooker penetration rates in Japan and Korea, then derived projections of electricity demand for urban China by 2000 using, among other things, rice cookers. (As also clothes washers, irons.) 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With a million dollar grant, I will calculate gains in life years (DALYs) from 1980 to 2010 due to electric rice cookers.  Modern coal power is a wonderful boon. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I didn't allow for heating milk; had no idea China will become such a huge producer and importer of milk. The market for kitchen appliances, processed foods, and restaurant meals, has left all the "improved woodstoves" at the mercy of stubborn poor.  What are GACCers yakking on and on for? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Our sin is, we keep on talking "stoves", not "foods", "peoples", "tastes." Woodstove programs for the rural poor households have burned the meals. They keep poor people poor. (Charcoal, coal and processed wood are exceptions). 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For a change, we might start talking about service standards, objectives, market definitions, and serving the poor instead of saving them. That would require thinking of the whole food and cooking "system" as Dr. Kishore said in the Up in Smoke news item. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There is probably a niche market for PV-battery woodstoves and also for PV-induction cooking. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The question is not "price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper", but rather as electricity gets RELATIVELY cheaper, all user costs considered. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am going out and venture another guess -- at 7 USc/kWh (tax-inclusive average tariff in India) grid electricity, baking bread and making rice with electricity is cheaper than with low-quality wood at 14 USc/kg or 30 USc/kg charcoal (again, average urban price in India). That is on fuel cost basis and without credit for convenience and cleanliness that some users are likely to prefer. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't think electricity price "would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes economic". I have been saying for 20+ years that for certain parts of urban Africa, electricity is cheaper than LPG and charcoal is not an option. So go electric, solar (water heating), gas (large cities), or eat out. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That would still leave about 500 million households in the world reliant on solid fuels.  What options have the biomass stovers given them yet? (Xavier Brandao had the right question.) 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nikhil
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>> (India +91) 909 995 2080
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:58 AM, <ajheggie at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> [Default] On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 16:16:50 +0530,Traveller
>>>>>>> <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> >Well, do you think woodstoves with PV-battery fans may be able to capture
>>>>>>> >1% of the cooking energy market in a developing country 10 years? That's
>>>>>>> >huge, and more than any improved woodstove has in the last 50 years.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> How do you decide on those figures from this discussion?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My inference from recent discussions here  was that a small PV
>>>>>>> solar-battery combination was more likely to be cost effective than a
>>>>>>> TEG IF it was decided that a fan powered stove was "worthwhile".
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >For one, the SE4All campaign is about "universal access" to electricity
>>>>>>> >(and "clean cooking", whatever that means). And even then, it is becoming
>>>>>>> >clear that there is a pico-PV battery market for phone, laptop, fan, for
>>>>>>> >mobile applications or a host of other appliances. Adding another battery
>>>>>>> >may improve the utilization rates for PV system investments, which then
>>>>>>> >lower the cost of outages on the grid if there is a grid connection. (I am
>>>>>>> >betting that at any given time, a fourth of the grid-connected households
>>>>>>> >in developing countries have a grid failure. No use pumping diesel power in
>>>>>>> >the grid or generate diesel power if small uses can be taken care of by
>>>>>>> >batteries.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I come from a country with a well established and reliable grid so I
>>>>>>> can only but imagine what I might value of the utility of a small
>>>>>>> amount of electricity. I suggest that powering a smart phone and
>>>>>>> lighting would be high on that agenda but it would be interesting to
>>>>>>> see the price/demand curve as electricity gets cheaper, I think it
>>>>>>> would have to fall a lot before cooking with electricity becomes
>>>>>>> economic. My cooking is almost exclusively done with electricity but
>>>>>>> that cost is a very low percentage of my income.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> AJH
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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