[Stoves] SPAM: Re: report with dissapointing results from cleaner cookstoves-new take
Tom Miles
tmiles at trmiles.com
Wed Dec 14 19:54:31 CST 2016
Paul,
Thank you for your observations and all of your good work. It's been a long
road for you. It was probably tough to see the conclusions drawn when you
know that the environmental factors you have listed were probably the major
contributors.
Regards,
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Sluis, Paul van der
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 11:15 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: SPAM: Re: [Stoves] report with dissapointing results from cleaner
cookstoves-new take
Dear Stovers,
I have visited this study area during the study. In the so called clean
intervention villages, the air was still full of smoke.
Smoke from burning trash.
Smoke from neighbors.
Smoke from stove stacking.
Smoke from inappropriate use.
In general people did love to use the stove for cooking.
I have pictures to proof this.
Problem is that the dose-effect relation is non-linear. A 50% decrease will
not show up in any way. Even a 75% decrease will be hard to show up. It is
95% or better reduction that is needed. Even with electrical cooking that
will not be reached without other interventions.
But also do bear in mind that the circumstances in which this study was
carried out are really incredibly difficult. It is easy to judge, but way
more difficult to correct.
I also assume there was pressure to publish. Still my conclusions would have
been different. Less damaging for the stove work of which I believe will be
one piece of the puzzle to improve situations in Malawi.
Malnutrition was also rampant in the area.
Kind regards,
Paul.
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Andreatta, Dale A.
Sent: dinsdag 13 december 2016 23:26
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] report with dissapointing results from cleaner
cookstoves-new take
The drum I've been banging on lately is the question of whether the cook
loves the stove. It's been a few days since I looked at the original
article, but I believe the picture showed a batch load stove with a very
small fuel chamber, with a pile of large wood in the background. If the
user has to break the wood into small pieces, and/or remove the pot to add
the fuel, they probably won't use the stove. I've not looked at the
original paper in the Lancet, but it would be interesting to know if they
tracked how much the stove was used. I suspect it wasn't used very often.
As others have pointed out, there appears to be a lot of background smoke
from various sources. I recall data from the article that said particulate
levels were still pretty high even when using LPG, which produces virtually
no particles. It might be possible they were never going to get a
measurable health effect, no matter how clean the stove.
Finally, I'll suggest there could be something funny with the statistics.
I'm not an expert, but I think the basics of statistical analysis goes like
this:
Step 1, set up a hypothesis to measure: The stove makes a difference.
Step 2, this determines the null hypothesis: The stove doesn't make a
difference.
Step 3, pick a confidence level: Let's say 90%.
Step 4, do the experiment and determine how confident you are that the
hypothesis is correct.
Step 5, if greater than 90% confident, report that the stove makes a
difference.
Step 6, if 89% or less confident the stove makes a difference, report that
the stove makes no difference.
I question the last part. I think this is why we are constantly see
conflicting information about "Eggs are bad for you", then "No, eggs aren't
bad for you".
In the clean water community they struggle with similar issues. It's my
understanding that there have been very few rigorous studies that have
showed that anything makes a difference.
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
Andrew Heggie
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 11:46 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: [Stoves] report with dissapointing results from cleaner cookstoves
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38160671
It's a surprising result and I would like to know why the cleaner stoves
used did not return a lower incidence of respiratory infections.
Is is because there are other vectors of the illnesses linked to poverty?
The two good results were that the cleaner stoves appear to be safer and
more economical to use.
AJH
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