[Stoves] Hypothesis for Wonderwerk TLUD-ND

Thu Sep 8 15:47:10 CDT 2016

Hi Paul,

Good to hear that you are planning to analyze tars in your stove work.
Similar to Philip's recommendation, I've used tars dissolved in various
solvents to analyze using FTIR and GC-FID, if you have either of those
available. If dichloromethane, pyridine, hexane etc are hallenging, you
could also try with isopropanol- I've been able to measure touene up to
MW>naphthalene w/ some success. For collection I've used solid phase
adsorption sampling directly from hot (300C) product gas- this is pretty
simple and much better at resolving heavy tars than tedlar bags. Happy to
talk more if that is useful.

Best

Dan

On Saturday, September 3, 2016, Paul Medwell <paul.medwell at adelaide.edu.au>
wrote:

> Once again, great suggestion Philip. Unfortunately, I live in a nanny
> state...dichloromethane or methanol are considered "too hazardous", so I
> reckon pyridine (no matter how effective) is probably off the cards.
> Anyway, we have colleagues that do this stuff all the time, so we'll sort
> something out.
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Philip Lloyd <plloyd at mweb.co.za
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','plloyd at mweb.co.za');>>
> Date: 03/09/2016 17:03 (GMT+09:30)
> To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.
> org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org');>>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Hypothesis for Wonderwerk TLUD-ND
>
>
> As to solvents, try pyridine. As I recall that takes up everything but the
> really low-hydrogen polyaromatics.
>
>
>
> Philip
>
>
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org');>]
> *On Behalf Of *Paul Medwell
> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2016 9:22 PM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Hypothesis for Wonderwerk TLUD-ND
>
>
>
> Dear Philip,
>
> Thanks for another great suggestion.
>
> This is also something that is planned. As part of an unrelated project we
> have been looking at this: we are still in the process of finding a solvent
> that has a collection yield, that doesn't interfere with (or gives an
> interference profile that we can correct for) and that OH&S will let us
> have. Fortunately, for the cookstove work there are fewer constraints than
> the other project (which is limited to sampling extremely low flowrates).
> We'll find a solution and share it.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On 2/09/2016 11:34 PM, Philip Lloyd wrote:
>
> I think you will find dissolving them in a fairly pure solvent and doing
> an infra-red spectrum will tell you a lot.
>
>
>
> Prof Philip Lloyd
>
> Energy Institute, CPUT
>
> SARETEC, Sachs Circle
>
> Bellville
>
> Tel 021 959 4323
>
> Cell 083 441 5247
>
> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org');>]
> *On Behalf Of *Paul Medwell
> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2016 4:12 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Hypothesis for Wonderwerk TLUD-ND
>
>
>
> Dear Kirk, Paul and all,
>
> Kirk: thanks for circulating your hypothesis. This seems well-founded.
> Paul: measuring long-chain hydrocarbons / tars is part of the planned
> project of PhD student Thomas Kirch.
>
> The intention is to measure the tars fairly soon. The catch is that our
> existing micro-GC isn't suitable for this, and finding someone who is
> willing to put our tars in their GC-MS is proving difficult. Until we get
> funds to buy our own, any suggestions for other ways of characterising the
> tars?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On 1/09/2016 10:53 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
> Kirk,
>
> The Wonderwerk Man has again done wonderful work!!!!   Stove Summit, Stove
> Camp, assisting Dennis (who then won the Cat Pee award), and cooking with
> Flip.  It is always a pleasure being with you.
>
> The hypothesis (explanatory document) is well done.  All serious stove
> researchers should read it.  Where is this document being placed for public
> access.   I offer to place it at the    drtlud.com   website.  (Send your
> reply to James Schoner directly or via the Stoves Listserv; I will be in
> Mexico for the next 13 days).
>
> Hypotheses are statements that ask to be confirmed.  The folks with the
> scientific equipment can now step in and see if the long-chain hydrocarbons
> are indeed breaking up when and where indicated by the hypothesis.  Good if
> that could be soon, but I expect not.  In the meantime, the excellent low
> emissions (which are facts, not hypotheses) speak for themselves.
>
> The needed scientific studies would help answer several questions such as
> whether all three steps (levels) are needed to accomplish the low emissions
> and the ability for turn-down to low fire.
>
> About turndown such as when cooking in Flip's oven, a different solution
> is to have a second gasifier reactor (fuel chamber) that has a smaller
> diameter.
>
> Keep up the good work!!   (werk)
>
> Paul
>
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','psanders at ilstu.edu');>
>
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 9/1/2016 12:34 AM, kgharris wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> Talking about stoves at the InStove Stove Summit and Aprovecho Stove Camp
> made me think through the workings of our Wonderwerk TLUD-ND.  I needed
> to create a working hypothesis of why it burns as cleanly as it does.
> Attached is the hypothesis.  It may not be completely correct, but it does
> provide an explaination, or at least a place to start an explaination.
> There is a lot that I don't know about this burning method and a lot
> of work left to be done.
>
>
>
> At Stove Camp, Sam Bentson, Aprovecho's lab engineer offered to help
> me probe into the pressure variations in the stove.  I was sadly involved
> with too many things to take him up on it.  My loss!  What I did do was to
> support Dennis, a visiting student from China, in his development of a wok
> support with skirt and chimney.   He tested it on top of the latest
> Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove and the results were impressive.  He made several
> adjustments to the dimensions which seemed to improve its performance even
> more.  He required only high power and no turn-down.
>
>
>
> After Stove Camp I visited with Jon and Flip Anderson.  We put an older
> Wonderwerk TLUD-ND under one of their clay ovens, and baked a cake.  It
> required two fuel (vertically arranged split sticks of an unknown variety
> of hardwood) loadings of the stove, the first to heat the oven and give
> about 30 minutes of baking and the second finished the 1 hour baking time.
> This showed the need for turn-down capability for oven baking.  The latest
> Wonderwerk stove, which I had left at Aprovecho, would very likely have
> done it with only one load of fuel, because of better turn-down and more
> efficient burning.
>
>
>
> I hope you enjoy looking through the hypothesis.
>
> Kirk H.
>
> Santa Rosa, CA. USA
>
>
>
>
>
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