[Stoves] WHO's for whom? For what?

[Traveller]

Rnn:

Thank you. I have been busy looking for woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None.

I was as disappointed as you are with me. I found some kitchens with -
egad, ventilator fans!!

What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with foreign food -
Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are polluting the outside air, the
pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures attached).

Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates and concentrations over the
Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada? At $9 million per saved
statistical life, it's a crime that our dear Global Alliance and Global
modelers of premature mortality are ignoring the lives of say, Nantucket
residents (median family income $90,000+)?

****
What soured me on what is marketed as science? Well, the marketing. Of
spurious theories and concocted data.

But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms emerge. Science struggles
through.

What stinks to high heaven, however, is the abuse of science by the
advocates, the saviors of the poor ready to market ADALYs.

I don't celebrate my ignorance. I do object to volunteered blindness.

I have a single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO exercise. Get out of
the box mentality, look at the cook and food, not fuel ideologies.

Nikhil



On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net
> wrote:

> Nikhil, cc list
>
> I apologize for not responding sooner.  Been busy.
>
> I find your response below to be most disappointing.  It is clear that you
> have no use for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on
> this list - many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to develop
> cleaner, fuel-saving stoves.  I have no idea on what has soured you on
> science.
>
> Dr. Michael Johnson, who was the key presenter in this webinar had been
> asked to develop a methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution
> problems - that included stoves but was for more than stoves.  I thought
> his work was outstanding; he answered an important question that many of
> are interested in.  It is clear you had/have no idea of what either he nor
> WHO is trying to do.
>
> I have not seen you give one single positive idea from you about helping
> the aim of this list.  Your satire leaves me cold.  Your humor leaves me
> cold.
>
> I ask that you stick to the topic of this list - which does not include
> supporting the use of coal or ridiculing those who are concerned about
> global warming.  It does not include giving advice such as your last line:
>
> *The rest is blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the
> poor, nor care. *
>
>
> I have read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting to
> very bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or most on
> this list.  It is clear too me that you know nothing about the poor
> yourself, nor about stoves.
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <miata98 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron had asked us all "I suggest waiting until after this webinar to
> answer your questions about WHO and stoves."
>
> There was no mention of Daniel Wilson's ES&T paper.
>
> I watched much of the Webinar. It was quite an entertainment. Comedy.
> Tragedy. Horror. Drama. Action.
>
> I am not enlightened.  Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to find light
> - or heat?
>
> Priesthood of any sect/cult narrates platitudes around which questions can
> or cannot be asked and answered.
>
> I don't remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD.
>
> A stove can do many things - the glass top electric ranges are as good as
> a table top.
>
> And a stove can get dirty in a myriad of ways. Cooking IS dirty; just ask
> anybody who has had to clean a stove or a kitchen.
>
> But we have most Quixotic adventurers, tilting at the windmills, in search
> of "clean air". Via box models.  Clean kitchen or clean food - or the
> quality of food - are assumed to be irrelevant to the question of cooking
> and health.
>
> Find your little sandbox and play. Let someone else bother about food and
> health.
>
> -------------
>
> WHO will save the people?
>
> Not WHO.
>
> My humble (!) suggestion to well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore
> advocates' deceit and pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the pursuit of
> knowledge - with all the qualifiers about assumptions and uncertainties
> that researchers do emphasize but the ritual of cite-o-logy ignores. It is
> unethical to be guided by unconvincing science just because it is done by
> scientists.
>
> What is to be done? a) Keep on innovating for specific geographic markets,
> considering a variety of fuels and appliances, focusing first and foremost
> on "cook food"; b) Formulate your ideas of market size and timing; c)
> Understand your customers' desires but also keep in mind that desires and
> needs are pliable and change in response to factors beyond your control;
> can you make just a fifth of the customers in a particular geographic
> market adapt your stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody comes to
> buy a second stove - even if the first one is virtually given away - that's
> the proof of your design. d) Yes, emissions, exposures, fuel consumption,
> time taken to cook, are all relevant to customers, but you really don't
> know who weighs what more than others, and what other things (fuel cycle
> management drudgery)
>
> The rest is blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the
> poor, nor care.
>
> Nikhil
>
>
>
>
>
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