[Stoves] Premix configuration

Ronal W. Larson rongretlarson at comcast.net
Thu Sep 29 20:16:05 CDT 2016


Alex cc list

	1.  Sorry that I didn’t see Paul’s queries or your answers before my comments and queries of a few minutes ago.  You can ignore some of mine that you covered below.  The new photo was helpful as was the description of some of the variabilities.

	2.  One thing I didn’t follow was this: “… paper thin sheet of blue….”

Ron


> On Sep 29, 2016, at 6:27 PM, alex english <aenglish444 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> This leads to some questions.  Some are clearly for you to tell of your experiences.   Others are suggestions of what other people could do if they wanted to get involved in replication.  There are some variables (device characteristics) that are not stated, so this is not yet something that a casual observer would do without further understanding.
> 
> 1.  Is you unit with forced primary air? 
> No. I light the fuel with a wide open 3 inch diameter primary air. Once it is charring across the surface I add the burner and light the flame and begin reducing primary air. With the flame in the video the opening might be all of a centimeter square.
> 
> Please describe.  If not with forced primar air, is there additional riser (chimney) above the zone of ignited gases?
>  Here is a pic of the pieces.
> https://goo.gl/photos/MQ27RrMQuoFY2Qmy8 <https://goo.gl/photos/MQ27RrMQuoFY2Qmy8>
> The two inch pipe acts as a chimney for the tlud fuel reactor. The six inch pipe acts mostly as a chimney to draw secondary air. The secondary air opening is essentially the circumference of the two inch pipe, one inch wide. That is a cross sectional area twice that of the two inch pipe circle opening, below it, which is providing the fuel.
> 
> 2.  Is there any turn-down capability?
> Yes. Turn up or turn down changes flame speed and the excess air. Total control over primary and secondary air is something I have done. It should be done by someone with the right test equipment. You can actually dial up and down the CO, and I would like to see that linked with particle emissions data. We sort of tried to do this at the stove camp last summer with a different burner. It would work better with this one.
>   And if turn-down of primary air does occur, we would expect the zone of the ignited gases to be lower in the funnel, right?   
> Not if the flame speed of the mix is reduced more than the velocity is reduced. The blue flame can rise up into the chimney and become a paper thin sheet of blue.
> 
> 3.  What might happen if there was forced secondary air?
> You can remove the chimney. I have done it with other models. 
> 
> 4.  If a flame/spark was introduced at the point of the entry of the secondary air, what would happen?  .
> That is how I light the flame. If the mix is right it can be lit from above.You can quench the flame by choking off the secondary air. Open it up and it lights itself from the hot metal.
> ..
> a.  a yellow flame upward in the funnel?
> b.  extinguished spark/flame (that is, no ignition)?
> c.  the flame goes up to the top and becomes blue without any flame lower down?
> 
> 5.  How do you actually ignite the pre-mixed gases?  That is, when and where do you first ignite the gases that were shown in the video?
> 
> 6.  Please comment on extending the narrow (2 inch diameter) section so that the blue flame would be even further from the entrance of the secondary air.   How far?   And if the diameter was even smaller, could the length be even longer?
> Perhaps. Anywhere below the  flame and the metal cools you get some condensing tarry liquids. They build up on the pipe and run down into the chamber and are charred. Some heat recycling would reduce it.
> 
> 7.  Have you experimented with sending the pyrolytic gases a longer distance before the entry of the secondary air?
> No. The length was just enough to keep the pressure at the top of the fuel chamber negative. Otherwise it would leak a bit of smoke.
> 
> Alex 
> 
> VERY interesting!!!!
> 
> Paul
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <tel:%2B1-309-452-7072>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
> On 9/29/2016 12:03 PM, alex english wrote:
>> Paul,
>> See below for a link to a picture. 
>> The gasses rise through a 2 inch diameter pipe which draws from a 12 inch diameter fuel chamber. Secondary air is introduced tangentially below the smooth funnel which expands to  6 inches. The picture shows that the high heat from the flame affects only the top of the funnel. So there is an 8 inch + distance where premixing occurred and velocity exceeds the flame speed.
>> 
>> https://goo.gl/photos/GB9PMaf6dX3n8cQ78 <https://goo.gl/photos/GB9PMaf6dX3n8cQ78>See video by Alex:
>> Here is a recent video of my premixed blue tlud-gas flame. Its all geometry, no obstruction.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnV1e60NTss&feature=youtu.be <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnV1e60NTss&feature=youtu.be>
>> Alex
>> 
>> 
>> 
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