[Stoves] FA vs ND in TLUD stoves -- not what you might expect about cost

Tue Apr 4 12:03:00 CDT 2017

Crispin, Paul:

Are FA stoves more amenable to control and hence more convenient in cooks'
views (subject to fuel, meals, pots diversity, etc.)?

If so, no further debate necessary as to other metrics.

It's not Crispin's job to convince Paul nor Paul's to convince Crispin. FA
and ND will find their niches if stovers stop arguing about technologies in
isolation from the geography and the demographics of cooking.

Still waiting.

Paul: all (controllable) power to you if FA TLUDs are more convenient.

Crispin: 3We is better than -1We power only if there is no grid (or a
reliable one). The question I have is, why haven't FA stoves captured even
1% of the household cooking market in 30 years of this list's existence? If
this is more difficult than rocket science, go to NASA; it's going to have
much more money than EPA.

Please stop boiling water. Unnecessary increase in GHG emissions.

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(India +91) 909 995 2080
*Skype: nikhildesai888*

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:

> Dear Paul
>
> "...are head and shoulders above any "ICS" ‎..."
>
> What is the metric(s) for which you are making this claim?
>
> How many 'equal stoves' without a fan do I have to demonstrate in order to
> convince you there are natural draft options?
>
> FYI I have been looking at getting three watts out of a stove at a low
> cost. The output is five volts DC, regulated, with varying current
> depending on the temperature.  The components needed cost $7.50 retail.
> That includes a USB port for charging. I don't know what the selling price
> of the stove will be, but it is really likely that being able to produce
> three watts instead of consuming one watt is easily worth the additional
> cost.
>
> What do you think? Are you amenable to making a self-powered unit?
>
> Thanks
> Crispin
>
>
> Stovers,
>
> FA (forced air or fan assisted) and ND (natural draft) versions of TLUD
> stoves have existed since the original work by Tom Reed (both types) and
> Paal Wendelbo (only ND) in the 1980s - 1990s. No need to describe them
> here. Check the written documents.
>
> What is not discussed much is the relative cost of these two major
> types. Of course, the QUALITY of the stoves will impact the price, but
> let's assume that quality is similar, such as using stainless steel in
> key parts, and using modern manufacturing with possible high volume
> production . Such stoves already exist or are nearly ready for the
> market, but are often overlooked.
>
> In my opinion, many TLUD stoves are "over-weight", being made of metal
> far thicker than is necessary. But assume similar weight optimization
> for both the ND and FA TLUDs.
>
> Basically, a TLUD is a fuel chamber with additonal walls and legs in
> various configurations. The differences because of ND or FA are
> primarily because of needed draft for combustion quality:
>
> 1. ND needs natural draft, and therefore vertical rise is important for
> negative pressure. An "internal chimney" (or riser before the gases get
> to the pot), or a chinmey after the pot is essential.
>
> 2. In contrast, FA needs draft, but it is from a the push of a fan or
> blower.
>
> The costs of "chimney components" vs the costs of "fan components"
> becomes the crucial issue. And there are expensive and inexpensive
> variations of both.
>
> But from what I am seeing, the chimney costs remain constant in each
> cultural context. Many Latin American stoves utilize chimneys, as do
> stoves in mountainous and cold-climate areas.
>
> But for the fan components, costs have been reducing and reducing more
> while the general availability of getting the few Watts of electrical
> power is becoming easier and more widespread, essentially being costs
> covered by other desires such as lighting and charging mobile phones.
>
> Basically, the costs to make a real chimney-based stove vs the componets
> in a functional FA TLUD stove are about equal now, and will be lower for
> the FA TLUDs as volume production kicks in.
>
> Today, 2017, if a society (or individual household) has economically
> sustainable grid electricity, or a solar-powered lighting system, or
> established battery-recharging services, (and the education and
> experience to reasonably care of an electronic device), a FA TLUD will
> be a reasonable addition to the household.
>
> Certainly, in ASPIRATIONAL TERMS, households will move toward the
> Fan-Assisted TLUD stoves, with cleaner combustion that can compete very
> well with LPG on cleanliness, while being environmentally and
> financially superior.
>
> In terms of clean combustion of source-fuels that are dry biomass such
> as wood, TLUD stoves --- especially with fans --- are head and shoulders
> above any "ICS" (Insufficiently Improved Cooking Solution) stoves that
> use solid fuels.
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
> Email: psanders at ilstu.edu
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
> Website: www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
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