[Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history

Fri Dec 1 11:14:32 CST 2017

Hello. Jacky!  Great to have input from Jacky's parents and grandparents
from the recent decades.  As Jacky correctly points out, China is a vast
country with a complex history.  Unfortunately documentation is sparse
regarding stove development, from what I have seen in the limited Imperial
museums I have visited. There is more interest and specific documentation
on the development of fine Chinese porcelain and cookware through the
different dynasties.  Frankly, the fine artistry has more artistic
interest.  Stove history seems to be an after thought and poorly
documented.  I have seen lots of stove designs in China, that pre-date
anyone on the stovelist, so excuse me if I don't embrace the stove history
claims made by others on the stoves.bioenergylist, including TLUD
development

For accuracy, it likely would entail a lifetime of work, spanning numerous
global locations and study.  This is a stove 1,600 -1,100 BC Shang Dynasty
or 1,100 - 256 BC Zhou Dynasty Bronze stove I photographed at the Imperial
museum in Xuzhou. Fuel is inserted at the left end of this apparent 3
burner brasier bronze brasier.  Unfortunately this was photographed through
the plexiglass exhibit.  Since the melting temperature of bronze would not
be considered viable for high temperature cooking, I'd have to guess this
was used for drying or heating tea.

Todd Albi, SilverFire

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:19 PM, <hfyblx at 163.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I have to apologize for having been absent from the conversation here for
> a long time. I have been struggling with my prelim since early this year if
> this is kind of excuse…
>
>
>
> The public kitchen movement is a product of ambitious growth goal that was
> set by the Chinese government (Great Leap Forward) back in the earlier
> years after the establishment of People’s republic of China. The
> government wanted to increase the steel production to beat the US and UK by
> having the small steel furnace built in lots of the villages. However, back
> then, there was not much iron mine in China due to the weak heavy industry
> and there was no way that the village would get access to the raw material
> for steel industry, not even mention that the production process applied
> could not make steel, but only some metal craps. As a result, all the iron
> woks in each house had to donate to the local “blast furnace” which
> consumed lots of local wood and biomass source (another story) as energy.
> That is the reason why it was not allowed to cook food in single family,
> instead, people all ate in the public kitchen.
>
>
>
> Disasters came along pretty soon. Both natural cause and artificial cause,
> natural cause account for 30% and government policy account for 70% (quoted
> from the website of The history of the people’s republic of China). Food
> storage went down very fast and people died of starvation (10 million based
> on the same website and there is no way I can find whether it is true or
> not). My dad and mom were born right around that three years and they were
> lucky.
>
>
>
> 1500 RMB for a stove, especially heavy heating stove is a common price I
> would say, while in the 1990s, the price was only 400 RMB. Prices are all
> relative. Back to the day when my parents got married, they can still
> afford that 400 RMB heating stove, accounting for less than 1/10 of annual
> income. There are poorer people and richer people all over the world, every
> county. Objectively speaking, the price of the stove in China is reasonable
> and government has done a lot to distribute the stoves to the project area
> (part of the poverty alleviation policy) at low cost or no cost for the
> receivers. The government will pay for the stove and the receivers only
> need to pay 50 RMB or so for delivery, so far as I know by doing the
> investigation in Shanxi, Hubei province supported by Shell foundation.
> Things might be different in other places but for the project areas, the
> receivers don’t need to pay for the stove that distributed by the
> project, that is for sure.
>
>
>
> During that investigation, I’ve seen stoves that were sent to the houses
> in the project conducted several years ago. I have to say, some of them
> were stored like new in the backyard and had never been used due to all the
> barriers realized by the researchers. However, some of them were in very
> poor conditions because of everyday wear and tear in the past three or four
> years.
>
>
>
> But with all the words above, I need to say stove technology is the key to
> answer the question from a technical point of view like how to increase the
> performance and how to make TLUD produce less smoke during ignition period
> and ending period by modifying the dimension and fuel compatibility. The
> studies that evaluate the stove projects will inform us all the barriers to
> improved stove adoption and all the great experience during each success
> stove dissemination. All the effort from the stove community should be
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> I have never experienced the bleak years and all my information came from
> my parents and my grandparents so please correct me if any story was buried
> in the history. After all, China is a vast country, similar size to the US,
> everything is possible.
>
>
>
> By the way, stove DIY is something done years ago in China. People living
> in the villages made their Zaos ( a type of common old stove in China, In
> English maybe hearths?) by themselves or hire the mason to do that if they
> don’t know how to make a good one. In this way, good masons can make
> stoves with less smoke and less energy use, then words spread and that is
> how masons made a living.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Jacky
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *lh cheng <lhkind at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, November 30, 2017 8:39 PM
> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves -- stove history
>
>
>
> Dear Dr,
>
> there is very little information in English about that, not even in
> Chinese. I am afraid I can't provide more.:( Smoke and stove is a very
> important causation, superficial though. yes, China has moved on since
> those bleak years of 1959-61.  but the  regime never admitted it, let
> alone apologize for it. research or evidence collecting is not welcomed.
> and I need to break GFW to contact with you now in 2017.
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> 2017-12-01 12:02 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:
>
> Cheng,
>
> I am learning a lot.  I am dividing the thread into a couple of parts.
> This first one is about history issues of stoves in China.
>
> The Wikipedia article is informative.  But not about stoves.  Are there
> writings about the "public kitchen" you mention or about stove issues such
> as the smoke causing retaliation by the autorities?   Our focus is about
> stoves and fuels.    I find this topic interesting, but only as history.
> China has moved on since those bleak years of 1959-61.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>
> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
>
> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>
> On 11/30/2017 8:55 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>
> Dear Dr Anderson and Stovers,
>
>   >Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
> deaths.
>
> this is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine about
> it. many details. it is called "Gong Chan Feng( wind of Communism)" by my
> father and mother and their generation, called "public kitchen" movement
> also, if any smoke arise in any home, government officials would rush in
> and destroy the stove, pots or dishes, these kind of thing is forbidden in
> home, and all confiscated.  in some villages, no one survived everyone
> died, in silence. if there were some smokeless clear-burn stove applied,
> maybe more people could survive? actually, technology doesn't matter at
> all, in a world of lies, technology only serves and helps lies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_
> lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_
> lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20171201/8df73c2e/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Shang period stove.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 83275 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20171201/8df73c2e/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Shang 2.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 109978 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20171201/8df73c2e/attachment-0001.jpg>