[Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and development]

Mon Dec 4 10:09:08 CST 2017

Ron:

I fail to see the relevance of your question altogether.

Nikhil

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> Nikhil:
>
> You have again failed to get at the thrust of my concern.  Let repeat my
> final two sentences last time:
>
> * “None of your answers get at the question of the value in making char
> while one cooks.  It is not a difficult question to answer.”*
>
> Ron
>
> On Dec 4, 2017, at 7:59 AM, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron:
>
> We should talk. I don't mean to offend you and am afraid of making you
> angry.
>
> But this is precisely the kind of questions that I used to challenge in
> many a questionnaires including rural energy surveys.
>
> The cardinal principle is that if you really want to gauge consumer
> preferences, try to understand their behaviors, living conditions in
> totality, not by asking spotty questions whose answers are convenient for
> you.
>
> What you are suggesting is a "leading question". I would strike it off
> immediately. If you had a questionnaire that gathered information on the
> physical, social, economic contexts, I might suggest alternative ways of
> getting an idea of what you want to know.
>
> I have been around long enough to sneer at academic surveyors who
> basically steal poor women's time, knowledge, soul to market their wares,
> write PhD theses to test fancy hypotheses and propound the findings at
> conferences.
>
> I have also talked to women surveyed and the survey takers. My sneer comes
> not from me but them. Behind the backs of Western theorists of rich
> theories, these people laugh and some tell me poor women are smart enough
> to know ahead of time these surveys serve no purpose other than preparing
> articles in peer-reviewed journals that none of their libraries can ever
> get.
>
> I have also been told - by survey designers - that poorly formulated
> questions elicit unreliable answers. Some poor women don't know whose cakes
> are sought to be cooked by stove promoters.
>
> Of course none of my answers got to what you asked.
>
> I am glad none of the surveys have asked your question.
>
> Markets evolve organically, which is why "development projects" in retail
> products and services have disillusioned me.
>
> No wonder more money has been spent on publishing papers than on design
> and testing of contextually relevant stoves.
>
> That said, let's design a broader survey with some way of getting to know
> if cooks want to collect enough extra wood to make biochar. My view -
> uninformed by questionnaires, of course - is that household cookstoves are
> not the way to get biochar for soil conditioning. It should be a
> large-scale industrial project. Already, billions of poor have seen it is
> better to get rich enough to afford gas and electricity than to wait for
> the Western stove community to develop the killer app of savior stoves. The
> only way to get their trust is to earn it from hard work, not by
> titillating them with "extra money". "Saving wood" was also the same as
> getting "extra money"; they have been fooled enough by that promise.
>
>
> N
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nikhil Desai
> (US +1) 202 568 5831 <(202)%20568-5831>
> *Skype: nikhildesai888*
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Ronal W. Larson <
> rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Nikhil:
>>
>> I hope you (and almost everybody on this list) will take the time to ask
>> a few low-income women the below-question that I have not seen asked.
>>
>>  If you could imagine yourself having a batch stove that cost the same
>> and used the same fuel whether you (now low income) would rather make money
>> or not, what would your own answer be?
>>
>> None of your answer below gets at what I am asking.  I repeat;  I have
>> not seen any survey with this question.  I have talked to many people about
>> this for twenty-plus years individually - and I have gotten the answer that
>> I want others to get.
>>
>> Obviously I am asking this so as to get char in the ground.  Obviously
>> for climate reasons.  But soil NPP improvement also occurs - without
>> conflict.  All this is obvious on the sister biochar list.  I am trying to
>> get this list aware of biochar as a positive part of stoves and cooking.
>> It is of no help to hear your answers about fuel collection, making
>> observations, cooks making money with kerosene stoves,  non-wood stoves
>> taking over, large-scale cooking , etc.  None of your answers get at the
>> question of the value in making char while one cooks.  It is not a
>> difficult question to answer.
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:48 PM, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ron:
>>
>> That is an interesting question but the answer has to be compared to
>> alternative means of making money.
>>
>> Reduction in fuel collection time is one form of saving; the time freed
>> up can be used for higher-priority activity, including education, child
>> care, or employment.
>>
>> In other words, answers to this question can only be interpreted with
>> additional, context-specific information or questions. In and of itself, it
>> is a meaningless question.
>>
>> There are indirect ways of gathering people's priorities -- observing
>> what they in fact do.
>>
>> Here is what I have observed over the last several decades:
>>
>> 1. In India, housewives in cities and towns have indeed made money by
>> cooking, though on kerosene and LPG/electricity and preparing
>> dry/canned/frozen foods as well as fresh meals and snacks for sale.
>>
>> 2. Roughly a billion people in the developing world have moved away from
>> collecting woodfuels and cooking all the meals for family consumption.
>>
>> 3. Family size and composition, location, alternatives and priorities in
>> use of women's time have changed.
>>
>> 4. Charcoaling from own or others' trees is an income-generating
>> activity, but whether a cook wants to spend her time to do the same is open
>> to question. She might well want to do for selling locally as fuel but not
>> to some central authority for biochar.
>>
>> Your question may be better directed to commercial, large-scale cooks,
>> who are probably easier customers for biomass and coal stoves anyway
>> compared to poor households.
>>
>> Nikhil
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Nikhil Desai
>> (US +1) 202 568 5831 <(202)%20568-5831>
>> *Skype: nikhildesai888*
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ronal W. Larson <
>> rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul:
>>>
>>> I have yet to see on ANY stove questionnaire:  “How important is making
>>> (more than saving) money when you cook?”
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Crispin,
>>>
>>> Good point.
>>>
>>> I wonder how ofter "pride of ownership" is included in the evaluations.
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope that such a quesiton can be asked to the 40,000 (or a sample)
>>> users of the Champion TLUD stove in West Bengal.
>>>
>>> About surveys and questionnaires and interviews, (whether for stoves or
>>> other topics), questions keep being changed, so comparison between results
>>> are often difficult or meaningless because of wording.   Are there some
>>> common (shared) questions that tend to be used in stove surveys?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <(309)%20452-7072>
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>>
>>> On 12/3/2017 5:35 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>>
>>> In the survey of potential stove users conducted in Gauteng 2004, "Pride
>>> of ownership" scored above price and fuel consumption in a ranking of
>>> features.
>>>
>>> Philip confirms this aspect of reality in the South African market.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>> “Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether
>>> the users like and use the stove.” A community I studied carefully had a
>>> monthly household income of <$100 yet strove to buy a smokey cast iron
>>> coal-fired stove costing ~$400.  It met all their needs – including a
>>> higher social status merely because they possessed such a stove.
>>>
>>>
>>> Prof Philip Lloyd
>>> Energy Institute, CPUT
>>> PO Box 1906
>>> Bellville 7535
>>> Tel 021 959 4323
>>> Cell 083 441 5247
>>> PA Nadia 021 959 4330
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>] *On Behalf Of *Nikhil Desai
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM
>>> *To:* Paul Anderson
>>> *Cc:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered,
>>> iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and
>>> development]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul:
>>>
>>> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the
>>> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,
>>> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the
>>> feedstock.
>>>
>>> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be
>>> given to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer -
>>> on the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of
>>> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.
>>>
>>> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,
>>> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of
>>> supposed "stove science".
>>>
>>> Nikhil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> Cheng and all,   (and a mention of Todd Albi).     see below.
>>>
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>>
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>>>
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072 <%28309%29%20452-7072>
>>>
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C62b2f8c8c9bf4c43283c08d53a40c4b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478972205853695&sdata=PbkCfNM6hUmnmoyj1uEbhKXufYiC9MFTSc3ueAqhjNU%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:
>>>
>>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too
>>> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one
>>> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new
>>> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert
>>> about this stove, that might be fine.
>>>
>>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove.  Yes, it is
>>> expensive, but expensive is a relative term.   It could be imported into
>>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much
>>> higher and it would then be expensive here.
>>>
>>>
>>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion
>>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a
>>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is
>>> enough.
>>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY.   And what would be the
>>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal?   Generalizing, it seems that
>>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China.   Todd Albi might be
>>> able to shed some light on this.
>>>
>>>
>>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove
>>> design spread among people, and people help each other.
>>> What do you have in mind?    in the context of China?   I have
>>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory
>>> context.
>>>
>>>
>>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30
>>> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people
>>> have memories.
>>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million
>>> deaths.
>>>
>>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv.   We appreciate your
>>> insights.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> best regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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