[Stoves] Top lit updraft combustors

[Ronal W. Larson]

List, cc Andrew and Norbert

	1.  Thanks to you both.  So we are all on the same page, the message the Andrew received at 15:36 PM was received at 9:38 AM Denver time.  That was a much longer message than below, but I don’t see anything to add.  All looked good,as Norbert was responding to my question on how to be sure that we were “harmonizing between two very different biomass thermal applications.

	2.  But re my on-going dialog with Xavier (hugely longer today) on this same topic,  I need to point out that Norbert said:  “When you get into the weeds of “what is the repeatability of your laboratory method”, the answer is “we don’t know”, and the next best answer is “plus or minus 40%, based on limited data”.

	For the WBT under discussion for stoves, I think we are probably about +/- 5% (example:   such as Tier 4 re cooking efficiency at 40% +/- 2%).  I’m happy enough with 5% repeatability and see in the standard deviations numbers much smaller at any single laboratory.  I gather Xavier thinks that is not good enough, but I still have to read through his many articles provided today to understand his concerns.

	
two more inserts below.


> On Dec 15, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Andrew Heggie <aj.heggie at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 14 December 2017 at 15:36, Norbert Senf <norbert.senf at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> If I were looking at a TLUD, for example, I'd want to know "what is the
>> emission number, expresses as grams of PM per kilogram of fuel, using a
>> dilution method ?". This is usually the number of interest for public health
>> authorities, because it is thought to be the best way to model particulate
>> emissions into the atmosphere. So perhaps this might serve as a proposal for
>> a harmonizing measure?
	[RWL3:  Norbert - my interest in this topic is from the perspective of char-making stoves (both cooking for this list and heating from yours).  In your world, would the practitioners accept the idea that your “kilogram of fuel” be modified by subtracting out the fuel that went into char?   (I’m simplifying here, because char has higher energy density).  I’d appreciate anything more you could add on “harmonizing” with char in mind. 
                 
	I like both your above answer and the earlier part I have not copied here;  just want to get your views on this list concerns.    
> 
> Yes but of course we would be interested in figures for all
> cookstoves, not just TLUDs.
> 
> What I want to know is how cheaply could acceptably accurate and
> precise (i.e. repeatable) protocol and equipment be made?
	[RWL4:   I think Andrew is (tn part) here raising the issue of what we call a WBT - water boiling test.  A certain load for the test.  Do you see anything wrong with a 5-liter standard cookpot of water, where you measure both temperature gain and evaporated loss?  (with arguments about how to handle char.)  Perhaps describing a little more on your thermal equivalent of a reproducible load (with char-making, if you can), valid anywhere on earth. 

	 Do you think that your test approaches have helped or hurt your industry?  (EPA and all the other tests.)  And users?

	I know from watching your video that the emphasis there was on carbon buildup on filter paper.  And “our” tests seem to have some of that.  I personally doubt  that individual “stove activists” on this list will want to get into the detail you showed on your video, but maybe you could say more - and about the other hard one: CO.

	Again, thanks.    Ron

> 
> Andrew
> 
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