[Stoves] EPA and heating stoves [Was: Top lit updraft combustors]

[Nikhil Desai]

Ron:

I was replying to Norbert and the the thread indeed had to do with EPA's legal authority, subject to public scrutiny and judicial correction on biomass heating stoves in US versus lack thereof when it comes to cookstoves in the developing world. 

It shouldn't surprise you that I have reverence for very few institutions. Like people, institutions are fallible and corrupted by politics and ideology. If EPA can't stand the heat, it should get out of the kitchen. Enough of secret circuses. 

I suggest you register your protest with the staff of the Subcommittee and the White House. I might write to Tim Wirth.  

My criticism is fact-based, not ideology-based. 

The path to hell is paved with good intentions. I am baffled at the reverence for GACC and ISO. What is your expectation for the next ten years - that some Savior Stove will descend from heaven, reproduce itself three billion times, and save four million lives?

But intentions are immaterial. I believe in the rule of law and public accountability. 

Please don't get personal about my motives. I have great respect for Federal staff, including those at EPA, a couple of whom were ex-coworkers. 

I emphasize this point because it is personal - back in 1981. I was stunned by the openness and the readiness to help of Washington Federal bureaucrats in many agencies including EPA and DOE. I can't say the same of Congressional committee or White House staffs when it came to openness or even competence, but they too impressed me. 

Washington taught me about governance. And about how to argue, criticize in the open but remain chummy in private. (You should see the retirement dinner for Harry Reid or Newt Gingrich at a Munk Debate in September. Newt, FYI, accepts that Trump is a "doodoo head". You would laugh as much as I did.)

Respect for opinion does not require agreement and respect for science does not require reverence and worship, quite the contrary. The art of governance and the art of doing science require skepticism. 

I will comment on wild fires and deaths when I get the paper. I rarely trust newspaper science and environment reporters to understand the complexities and nuances. As I wrote to you earlier, Andy Revkin was stellar, Chris Mooney has a long way to grow up. 

Do you remember if the computed death figure was annual? Remember, some 2-3 million Americans die every year and their deaths can be attributed to something or the other depending on the model and modelers' fancies. 

Let's go off list and discuss means of preventing and fighting wild fires. 


Nikhil


> On Dec 20, 2017, at 5:35 AM, "Ronal W. Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Nikhil and list:  with ccs
> 
> 	Your one-liner below is the best example yet of your misusing this list.  I doubt that even you cares a whit about that subcommittee markup.
> 
> 	Almost no-one will even know to what your below message pertains - a single sentence in a message 5 minutes earlier, which itself also had nothing to do with the intended topic of this list - biomass-based cookstoves.  Biomass-based cookstoves are a subject of essentially zero interest to 99.9% of the American public, but EPA’s work should still be of major importance to them - which is why I write.
> 
> 	The best explanation for your message below I can imagine is that you are employed by someone to trash the EPA.  If so, I wonder if you get paid by the word or the hour?  Or - just why do you write so angrily about the EPA?
> 
> 	I am not paid by anyone to defend the EPA.  I defend them because I believe a very few EPA staff are doing a marvelous job in a very difficult assignment for overseas stove users.  I doubt there are any other individuals anywhere in the world with their depth of technical cookstove knowledge - mostly designed to alleviate illnesses and suffering of the poorest of us.  
> 
> 	Because you insist on trashing EPA, you must be delighted that the EPA is being demolished by the worst President in American history - now with an approval rating in the 30’s.   An Administrator and President who clearly have no interest in the topic that we are supposed to be discussing.  Two who have no understanding of the international benefits to millions of Americans of paying a few EPA staffers to do work that enhances our overseas image.  I can assure you that the German and Chinese (and many other) governments understand the value of appearing to care about others sufferings.  And believe that wealthy countries have a moral obligation to help others out of poverty - through groups like the EPA.
> 
> 	I write this all with no delight - but to try to prevent others from believing anything you are saying about the EPA (and stove testing).  And to make note that you do a wonderful job of asking questions - but not answering them.  Bringing in Mr.  Houck into the discussion over and over again is of zero help to this list.  What a very few EPA staffers are doing with little help from you and a few others on this list is worthy of your praise - not ridicule.
> 
> 	For the 6th time I ask you to talk about deaths from forest fires.  That is of direct relevance to EPA’s work on stove health issues both here and overseas.  The excellent EPA overseas work has none of the flavor of standards here.  TC-285 is NOT a standard.  It was designed to help create better stoves through offering aspirational goals.  Without EPA’s active involvement, I believe we would not have heard only in the last 30 days of two outstanding stove contributions to the future improved health of billions (not millions) of the world’s poorest - by Julien and Kirk.  That’s where this list discussion should be - and used to be - before you drove the most valuable contributors away.
> 
> 	You are obviously a very smart person.  I hope you will reconsider whatever is driving your unfathomable hatred for EPA - demonstrated again by your message 5 minutes before this one (and dozens of others).    This is also my reply to that string with Norbert that ended 5 minutes before yours below.
> 
> Ron
> 	
> 	
> 
> 	
> 
> 
>> On Dec 19, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> A link for my statement about the House Subcommittee on Environment - http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF18/20171115/106643/HMKP-115-IF18-20171115-SD002.pdf. 
>> 
>> Nikhil
>>  
> 
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