[Stoves] About LPG and India. Re: [stove] Ujjwala explained

Wed Oct 4 23:40:38 CDT 2017

Dear Ron and Paul,
The cost of LPG for commercial users used to be between Rs.85 and 90 per
kg. A sugar factory in our state produces biogas and supplies pure methane
in cylinders to some restaurants. It charges Rs.80 per kg methane. I asked
the sugar factory management, how the price of Rs.80 per kg was arrived at.
I was told that there was no formula for price calculation, and that the
price was fixed at Rs.80 per kg because the cost of commercial,
non-subsidized LPG was Rs.90 per kg.  There was an appeal by the Government
a couple of years ago that people who could afford to buy non-subsidized
LPG should voluntarily give up the subsidy and pay the non-subsidized
price. We informed our LPG dealer that we may be charged the regular,
non-subsidized price, and yet we found that we were paying a very low price
for our cylinders. It seems that the government has, in the meanwhile,
reduced the price of LPG.
The present cost of charcoal is about Rs.30 per kg. Our char briquettes,
produced from agricultural waste, are sold at Rs.40 per kg, but we have a
steady market for them.
Among the clean burning biomass stoves are the ELFD stove developed by my
daughter. It is marketed by her own firm, Samuchit Enviro Tech. In the ELFD
stove, steam is used for providing secondary air to the flame. There are
several models of stoves which provide secondary air by means of an
electrically driven fan. They are made by small local fabricators, who also
manufacture biomass pellets and sell them as fuel for these stoves. A
company in Puduchcheri makes a stove called Prakti, which is somewhat like
the Rocket Stove. I must state here that these stoves are not used by
villagers but by urbanites. Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
developed recently an attachment for providing additional secondary air to
the flame. By using this attachment, one can convert any biomass burning
stove into a forced draft stove.
Yours
A.D.Karve

***
Dr. A.D. Karve

Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)

Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
wrote:

> A.D.
>
> I know you have this one, but others might find this site informative:
> http://www.petroldieselprice.com/lp69/lpg-gas-cylinder-price-in-
> Mumbai-Gr-Bombay
> The pertinent lines show for Mumbai:
>
>
>
> The number that pops out is the big reduction in the subsidy in the past
> two months (bottom line).  How has this gone over?  The poor are now paying
> 485/14.2 = 34.5 Rs/kg, vs formerly  60/14.2 = 4.22 Rs/kg.
>
> I see Mumbai’s August price was the only one that was so low - so perhaps
> the jump there was just delayed and all of India has had this huge change
> recently?
>
> My main question is this:  if a poor family sells its cylinder (for 485.50
> Rs - or more/less?), how are future “balance credits to their bank account”
> handled as that container is refilled?  Does the purchaser of the container
> only gain the 90.5 Rs benefit one time?  Can the poor buy low and sell high
> any number of times?
>
> But I also can’t find a way to justify your 90 Rs/kg ($1.40) cost per kg
> (see my 34.5 Rs/kg above - with the unsubsidized numbers less than 20%
> higher).  These numbers today from the internet are less than half as high.
>
> If you could also supply recent numbers for the cost of charcoal,  I think
> we can help Paul out for his upcoming trip to Delhi.  It would appear that
> LPG might be a better buy than charcoal - on a per MJ basis?  This last
> assuming char should be at least 3 to 4 times more costly than wood per kg.
>
> Ron
>
> On Oct 2, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear stovers,
> LPG in cylinders is a commodity that can easily be converted into money.
> Those who get subsidized or free LPG in cylinders often sell the cylinders
> to users who have to pay the full price. Biomass is actually cheaper than
> LPG. It takes about 3 kg wood to get the same energy as a kg of LPG.
> Whereas 3kg wood costs about Rs.20 (US cents 30), non-subsidized LPG costs
> Rs.90 (US$1.4) per kg. Cleanly burning biomass stoves are available in
> India, but since the petroleum companies in India are owned by the
> Government of India, the government is just not interested in promoting
> stoves using biomass.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
>
> Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (www.samuchit.com)
>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Stovers,
>>
>> Kirk Smith has shared his latest book-chapter.   Links to it are below.
>>
>> I make several comments, mostly with my focus on "solid biomass fuel
>> stoves":
>>
>> 1.  The content about LPG fuel and stoves in India is quite worthwhile.
>> The chapter is based on 8 solid peer-reviewed writings that are listed in
>> the Endnotes (all written by Smith, often with co-authors.)   For that
>> reason, much of what is in the book chapter is very similar to prevous
>> writings.  So this chapter brings numerous segments together nicely.
>>
>> 2.  One paragraph (middle of the fourth page of the .pdf document) is
>> about biomass stoves:   It says:
>>
>> "None of  this [about LPG] has, however, affected the budget of the
>> renewable energy ministry, which still runs the national biomass and biogas
>> stove programs.  These programmes should still be encouraged,but perhaps
>> now be better focused on the very poorest and more remote populations that
>> will not be reached by LPG in the next decade." ...
>> *[That is an important concession that Smith clearly makes in many of his
>> writings.  And he goes on to say.]*
>>
>> ..."These people would still benefit from more efficient stoves that at
>> least lower pollution exposure to some extent."
>>
>> [That is a nice concession, but it certainly is not very forceful.  To
>> say "... to some extent" could be a justification for mediocre ICS
>> stoves.   Perhaps to let the poor folks have Tier 2 and Tier 3 stoves?
>>  And then he puts in the kicker, the comment to kill the truly clean
>> burning biomass stoves:]
>>
>> ..."Unfortunately, however, no biomass stove on the market today is
>> nearly as reliably clean  as gas fuels and, thus, cannot be proposed yet as
>> a health measure if gas is available."
>>
>> I do note the qualifier words  "... if gas is available."   The rest of
>> the chapter says that LPG or PNG (piped natural gas) is coming.
>>
>> But would Smith say that sentence without the final four words?   Will he
>> acknowledge that there are very clean burning stoves that burn biomass?
>>
>> This is VERY recent writing, so it is interpreted as Kirk Smith's current
>> positon about the Advanced Modern Clean  Cooking Solutions ("MACCS") that
>> include the Woodgas / Micro-gasifier stoves.
>>
>> I do not want a fight.   I want Kirk Smith to openly and enthusiastically
>> acknowledge the current existence and the increasing progress of VERY CLEAN
>> burning biomass stoves.   I have recently written about the need for
>> recognition of the clean  burning biomass stoves, with copies reaching
>> Smith and Dean  Still and GACC leaders who will be speaking at the coming
>> GACC Forum.
>>
>> Let's try to get this clarified beforehand so that we do not need to
>> force discussion in the question and answer times at the Forum
>> presentations.   Tht conversation is on-going at the Stoves Listserv.
>> Please share this message with everyone.
>>
>> ************  Now back to the discussion of Smith's chapter. *************
>>
>> 3.   On page 5 of the .pdf file are these words relating to the sources
>> and abundance of LPG:
>> ".... will be used somewhere no matter what --- autos, petrochemicals, or
>> being flared, are the other main uses besides households.  Why not ustilize
>> as much as possible to the highest social value use --- cooking for the
>> poor?"
>>
>> Responses:
>> A.  Do not flare it.   That is pure waste.
>>
>> B.  Use LPG for autos because biomass is nowhere close to being as good
>> for vehicle fuel.   Unlimited demand for LPG as a vehicle fuel if the
>> vehicles are equipped for LPG.  Distribution problems are reduced because
>> the vehicles go the the distribution stations.      But why might this not
>> appeal?   One reason is that LPG would then compete with gasoline and
>> diesel fuels, and that would be competition WITHIN the interests of Big
>> Oil.   So, therefore, it is more  business if they direct LPG to the poor
>> people.
>>
>> C.  LPG is NOT financially friendly to poor people.  Yes, GIVE them an
>> LPG stove and full tank, and then expect them to forever make payments for
>> refills.   Not a bad deal for the oil marketing companies (OMCs), of which
>> there are three big ones in India, with the Government of India  (GoI)
>> owning more than 50% of each.
>>
>> D.  Sure the LPG and PNG are clean burning (the health arguement), but so
>> are the MACCS that include biogas and alcohol and solar and electric and
>> the "Woodgas from Biomass".   And of those, the Woodgas / gasifiers can
>> actually use locally grown biomass of many types, precisely the same fuels
>> that those poor families are currently using in their smoky stoves that are
>> causing indoor and outdoor pollution.  Solid biomass is not a dirty fuel.
>> Fuels need to be in the correct stoves where they are cleanly combusted.
>>
>>  4.  On page 7 of the .pdf document, Smith comments regarding getting the
>> LPG into "...the poorest and remotest parts of the country... where the
>> density of connections is lower than distributors have enjoyed up to now.
>> Use of women's self-help groups, rural cooperatives and other existing
>> ogranizaitons will be needed..."  THAT comment is equally valid (or even
>> more valid) regarding the introduction of the CLEAN BURNING biomass
>> stoves.  And in those areas, the biomass fuels are local, and do not
>> require trucks and then the manual carrying of metal LPG cylinders.
>>
>> 5.  On page 8, there is discussion of the government expenditure of US$
>> 1.2 Billion for the PMUY programme for free LPG connections to 50 million
>> households.  "Indeed, it would seem that the programme can soon claim to be
>> a social investment, not a subsidy.  Both come from the taxpayer, but the
>> former has a much different connotation when focused on the poor."
>>
>> The same could be said if the stoves were the clean burning gasifier
>> stoves.  No, stop, wait.   it is not the same.   The biomass gasifiers can
>> claim carbon credits and can actually PAY BACK the investment,   So the
>> government might only be a guarantor of loans that will be paid back to
>> lenders such as the Asian Develpment Bank.
>>
>> Please note that carbon credits with gasifier stoves are ALREADY being
>> earned in India (Deganga case study in West Bengal).   Without any money
>> from the government (and therefore slower than it needs to be.).   Also,
>> note that the gasifier stoves are in areas within reach of the LPG
>> distribution activities and the free LPG equipment.   The people will
>> decide what they want to use.
>>
>> 6.  Finally, I am NOT against the LPG / PMUY programme.   But I do want
>> recognition and appropriate support (organizational and financial) for the
>> expansion of the gasifier stove efforts in India.   Smith's chapter
>> virtually ignores the viable alternative / co-solution offered by the
>> gasifier cookstoves.   The issue is not about starting the gasifier
>> efforts.   Efforts are already underway, with proven results.   The issue
>> is to be supportive of the much more rapid expansion of those gasifier
>> stove efforts.
>>
>> May progress be made.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>> Website:  www.drtlud.com
>>
>> On 9/27/2017 12:04 PM, Kirk Smith wrote:
>>
>> Below is the first para of Kirk R. Smith, 2017, *The Indian LPG
>> Programmes: Globally Pioneering Initiatives*, Chapter 5 in Bibek Debroy
>> & Ashok Malik, eds, *India at 70; Modi at 3.5 <Modi at 3.5>*,
>>
>> Wisdom Tree, New Delhi, 211 pp.
>>
>>
>>
>> The full chapter can be downloaded from the website at the bottom.
>>
>> (and here:  http://www.kirkrsmith.org/
>> or directly at:   http://www.kirkrsmith.org/publ
>> ications/2017/9/27/the-indian-lpg-programmes-globally-
>> pioneering-initiatives   )
>> <http://www.kirkrsmith.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <image002.png>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kirk R. Smith, MPH, PhD <krksmith at berkeley.edu>
>>
>> Professor of Global Environmental Heath
>>
>> School of Public Health, University of California Berkeley and
>>
>> Collaborative Clean Air Policy Centre, India Habitat Centre, New Delhi
>>
>> Indian cell number: (91) 99-5873-8713;
>>
>> http://www.kirkrsmith.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you are interested in receiving the messages directly from Kirk smith,
>> you can subscribe to the group as I have done.
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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