[Stoves] Understanding what TLUD means.... was Re: stoves and credits again

Sat Sep 30 17:53:25 CDT 2017

My interest in TLUDs is to make char for non-combustion uses, while generating syngas for energy uses. Our technology may not be very applicable to the cooking scenarios that many of you are addressing, but one version of our gear does theoretically pencil out for a regional Mexico scenario, where families can cook and heat while making biochar -  which has an economic value greater than the feedstock being used. And, for the time, there is no shortage of feedstock (pecan shells), so these families can make money by making heat+char, instead of spending money on heat energy )propane). They can also generate a good many more non-monetized benefits at the same time.

However, I was interested in reasons for mixing char with biomass, instead of just combusting the biomass completely on the first run, as it adds a a step to the process. I have a better understanding of it now, thanks to those who responded.

Cheers,

Gordon 

> On Sep 30, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> List and cc Gordon,  Paul, and Crspin
> 
> 	I just sent in a note re Gordon, papercrete, and erosion - saying I would comment on this other “Gordon topic”.
> 
> 	Briefly,  I’m guessing that Gordon is asking why would anybody consume (mix with dry biomass for cooking) a product (char) that is more valuable when left un-burnt?
> 
> 	I add Paul, because I will also try to comment soon on his response (also below) to Crispin on “TLUD language.”    I know that Paul already agrees with Gordon and myself on the reasons to not co-fire char and wood.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 30, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Gordon West <gordon.west at rtnewmexico.com <mailto:gordon.west at rtnewmexico.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> A basic question: What is the intended purpose in mixing char in with dry biomass for cooking?
>> 
>> Gordon
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 30, 2017, at 9:53 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Crispin,
>>> 
>>> "TLUD" is the combustion processes associated with the Migratory Pyrolytic Front  (MPF). that creates the pyrolytic gases and leaves charcoal behind.  That does not change.  The other features of a "stove device" can be and are diverse.  And that is where we can find all of the variations that you mention.
>>> 
>>> If a stove COULD successfully operate with the MPF, it could be called a TLUD stove even if it can also be operated in other ways.   
>>> 
>>> But if it COULD be with the MPF, but if it is mostly NOT being used with the MPF, calling it a TLUD gasifier stove is misleading.
>>> 
>>> [Note:  This same problem occurs with the "Rocket" combustion processes which (for the purists among us) should have the fuel-supporting shelf with air entering underneath until it comes up near the burning tips of the inserted fuel.   From my limited following of on-going Rocket stove designs and production, the shelf with associated tip-burning is often absent (by manufacturing or by user removal) but the name is still Rocket stove.  That is unfortunate, in part because the Rocket advantages are absent and should not be claimed by the different stove.   I do not want the TLUD distinctiveness to be claimed if the MPF is not an active part of the operation  of a stove that claims to  be a TLUD.]
>>> 
>>> Example:   If you filll a TLUD-capable fuel chamber with charcoal, there canNOT be a MPF.   Why?   Because there is no pyrolysis.   The fuel is ALREADY charcoal.   That operation might be driving off some  volatiles that then move upward, but that is not pyrolysis.  
>>> 
>>> Note:  TLUD is an acronym for "Top-Lit UpDraft".   But the acronym is now a distincitive name in its own right.   And it is associated with the MPF and with dry biomass fuels.   If some other process has ignition at the top and has upward moving air flows, it can have any name you want to give it, but not the name TLUD.  
>>> 
>>> As a rather absurd example, if there is a "Lignin Powered Gasifier" stove, it should not be called an LPG stove.  That would be misleading, would be false, and could probably cause some law suit from the big business of LPG.   I doubt that LPG is a registered trademark, but misuse of those letters would cause trouble.
>>> 
>>> So, please help to keep TLUD to mean things consistent with "woodgas" and "pyrolysis" and MPF.  Ify you discussing something else, then  come up with its own distinctive  and non-confusing name.   
>>> 
>>> Persistent Paul 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>>> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu <mailto:psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>> Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
>>> Website:  www.drtlud.com <http://www.drtlud.com/>
>>> On 9/30/2017 7:56 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>>>> Dear Persistent Paul
>>>>  
>>>> I appreciate the way in which you have stuck to the promotion of TLUD’s and show no signs of skacking.
>>>>  
>>>> >>…That establishes the principle that TLUD‎s can burn char.
>>>> >No.   The char yield is associated with some char combustion  during the time of the pyrolysis, but that is not the same as having the char as the input fuel.
>>>> 
>>>> Well I just showed that char can be an input to a TLUD. I can burn charcoal only as an input fuel to a TLUD.  I have a set of cooking photos used for promotion showing a Vesto operating as a TLUD charcoal burner with a cooking plate in place of the pot. Charcoal stoves operate much better, cleaner and longer when operated in TLUD mode. TLUD was the standard operating method for the POCA which is a charcoal-only stove.
>>> I have replied to this in my above comments.   PSA
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