[Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests
Nikhil Desai
pienergy2008 at gmail.com
Wed Aug 1 00:13:33 CDT 2018
Xavier:
Below in red the concluding part of my 30 October 2017 review of DIS
19867-1. I can dig up the details if you wish.
You know I don't care for the WBT but nor for the IWA performance metrics,
because they cannot be rationally linked to any objective. Efficiency
increases do not protect forests, and lower emission rates do not guarantee
lower pollutant dosage, without many interim assumptions that vary from
case to case.
There was no showing, not even a simplistic argument, that the standard
proposed would do any good - produce replicable results for locally
relevant fuels and cooking practices.
In short, the document was an arrogant product of experts with no
accountability, no mandate under any law, floating in the clouds of
globally homogeneous fuels, cooks, meals, meteorology, building conditions,
and massaging data and egos.
Nothing will come of it any time soon to deliver breathing space for even
30 million people, leave alone 3 billion.
Did anybody want it otherwise?
Time to salvage the sinking ship.
Nikhil
--------
My views on the draft DIS 19867-1
*There is no convincing case that adoption of these Laboratory Testing
Protocols changes anything other than pressures for favoring USEPA-ordained
methods and equipment with poor or no record of reliability or usefulness
in designing useful cookstoves.*
For specific reasons outlined below, I consider this document unripe for
decision and recommend that it be rejected and returned to the ISO.
a) the document fails to meet its stated goals and is thus not mature for
final publication;
b) the metrics of “performance’ that are beyond the control of the stove
designer or supplier must not be mandated upon them;
c) in particular, there is no justification for including in any particular
protocol for laboratory or field testing performance targets that do not
meet an explicit public policy objective articulated in a policy framework
and enforced; and,
d) the required procedures, equipment and calibration techniques have not
been proven to be reliable guides to stove design and testing in the past,
and it is not necessary to rely on a fixed set of parameters for fuel type
and quality, cookstove type, residential environment, cooking tasks, foods,
and non-cooking co-products (space heating, charmaking) if the only benefit
is reduced conflict between stove theorists, with no showing that the
designers and suppliers of stoves and fuels benefit from it.
No case has been made that international harmonization and alignment of
methodology and metrics according to DIS 19867-1 has a logical, if
uncertain, path to solving any particular problem. This DIS has to be
revised and offered for review simultaneously with Part II of 19867-1 and
all other documents in preparation for 19867 series in order for the
serviceability of the package to be assessed.
After settling what the policy goals and particular problems are, the
protocols should be piloted in a select number of locations – urban and
rural, with varying seasonal patterns in stove use and fuel quality,
different altitudes and residential structures – to verify that the methods
are used and useful for stoves of different sizes, temperature and power
patterns, and contribute to design of stoves that are proven acceptable in
use. Only then they can be attractive to individual member states.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikhil Desai
(US +1) 202 568 5831
*Skype: nikhildesai888*
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 7:16 PM, <xvr.brandao at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Ron,
>
>
>
> *« **I assure you that I have plenty of company - and it will appear
> soon. »*
>
> Sure, anytime, I am always available to have a conversation with anyone
> who will wish to demonstrate how the WBT is a reliable protocol, and why it
> should be used.
>
>
>
> *« But that is not sufficient reason to drop the test. »*
>
> Then I don’t know what is.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Xavier
>
>
>
>
>
> *De :* Ronal W. Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> *Envoyé :* samedi 28 juillet 2018 02:23
> *À :* Xavier Brandao <xvr.brandao at gmail.com>
> *Cc :* Discussion of biomass <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>; Kirk
> Harris <kgharris at sonic.net>
> *Objet :* Re: [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests
>
>
>
> Xavier, Kirk and list
>
>
>
> see below
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2018, at 2:53 PM, <xvr.brandao at gmail.com> <
> xvr.brandao at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Ron,
>
>
>
> I don’t think the new ISO standard includes the WBT, I think you are the
> only person claiming that.
>
>
>
> *[RWL: I guess you will trust what the South Africa
> group thinks on this subject. They failed in a fight to remove the WBT. *
>
>
>
> * I could send a copy of what has been approved - but
> that would violate the agreement I made to be part of the process. *
>
>
>
> *I assure you that I have plenty of company - and it will
> appear soon. *
>
>
>
> *What Nikhil has is possibly/probably 99% of the final.*
>
>
>
>
>
> Until there exists reviews of the WBT protocol demonstrating it is valid,
> the « cites for inadequacy that are very old » (some are from 2016 and
> 2017) will be the only proofs there is.
>
>
>
> « *[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some
> group that treats char as waste? »*
>
> See the table from *Riva and al., Fuzzy interval propagation of
> uncertainties in experimental analysis for*
>
> *improved and traditional three – Stone fire cookstoves* below, this is
> with the WBT:
>
>
>
> <image001.png>
>
> Some of the stoves tested were « Micro-Gasifier Stoves with FAN »
>
>
>
> *« [RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or
> char-making. »*
>
>
>
> *RWL: I agree that the word micro-gasifier was there.
> They still were only arguing for more tests - that I still claim aren't
> worth the extra effort. Too much depends on the operator of the test.
> But that is not sufficient reason to drop the test. Just be satisfied if
> you and other groups can get within a few percent.*
>
>
>
> *Ron*
>
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