[Stoves] WBT disagrements

Wed Jan 10 13:32:52 CST 2018

Stovers,

I highly agree with what Crispin and Xavier are intending to do. Their 
method of compaisons (the spreadsheets) needs to be very clearly 
explained so that others can see what are the differences and then 
clearly see what are the concequences.   Will this be "operational" in 
time to have some results to be discussed at ETHOS?

I suspect that INTERPRETATION of the results might still be different.  
For example, how charcoal (a byproduct, if any) is acknowledged (or 
omitted) needs to be clearly stated.

At ETHOS this month I will present some quantitative (financial) results 
about charcoal  from some TLUD stoves in India.  The results are quite 
favorable and will give one perspective on the value of produced 
charcoal, and that can be compared with the value of the wood fuel that 
did not get burned to do the residential cooking.

And then there is the case of when pellet fuel is made from either 
agro-refuse (like corn/maize cobs)  or from non-wood energy crops (grown 
to be fuel), IN CONTRAST TO WOOD FUEL that impacts forests that are 
either sustainable or forest-depleting.

Paul

Doc  /  Dr TLUD  /  Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu
Skype:   paultlud    Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:  www.drtlud.com

On 1/10/2018 10:56 AM, tmiles at trmiles.com wrote:
>
> Thanks to Crispin and Xavier for working up a spreadsheet comparing 
> results from the three methods. Hopefully that will show the strengths 
> and weaknesses of each of them. Repeatability within a reasonable 
> range is clearly important.
>
> Tom
>
> *From:* Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Kirk H.
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:46 AM
> *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves 
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] WBT disagrements
>
> Ron,
>
> No, there was no discussion on this topic.
>
> Kirk H.
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> Windows 10
>
> *From: *Ronal W. Larson <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 9, 2018 5:19 PM
> *To: *Discussion of biomass <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] WBT disagrements
>
> Kirk: cc list
>
> Thanks for hanging in there.
>
> I wonder if,  in your off-list dialogs with Crispin and Xavier, you 
> could determine how they would go about utilizing your own work in 
> charcoal-making stoves - in the Tier ranking system.
>
> The WBT methodology coming out of the ISO-285 activities (in WG2 and 
> many other methodologies) supports what I have termed the “denominator 
> equation”  e3=e1/(1-e2). e3 (to be used in the Tier rankings)  can 
> also be written as e3=e1/(e1+i) = 1/(1+i/e1).  This, since e1+ e2 + i 
> = 1 (where i is the inefficiency).   Note no negative sign in the 
> denominator, when written this way.
>
> It seems they want to treat all char as a waste material (become part 
> of the inefficiency term i);   e2 should apparently always be zero in 
> their thinking.  Did you learn anything on this point?
>
> Ron
>
>     On Jan 9, 2018, at 1:12 PM, Kirk H. <gkharris316 at comcast.net
>     <mailto:gkharris316 at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     Crispin,
>
>     I think your question was appropriate and the answers were
>     hopefully helpful.
>
>     No, you don’t deserve credit for being helpful.  I asked my
>     question and instead of answering it you projected your agenda
>     into me and proceeded to answer your own projections, not my
>     question.  Without an answer from you I had to make a guess.  You
>     didn’t like my guess and became angry and in that anger actually
>     gave me a partial answer.  You proceeded to push your agenda using
>     me as a pawn, but not fully answering my question.  I had to fight
>     tooth and nail with you and Xavier to get tid-bits of
>     information.  Finally I had enough tid-bits of information to
>     assemble a coherent answer.  The credit is mine for fighting for
>     an answer.
>
>     Kirk H.
>
>     Sent fromMail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>for
>     Windows 10
>
>     *From:*Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>     *Sent:*Tuesday, January 9, 2018 2:13 AM
>     *To:*Kirk H. <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>;Discussion
>     of biomass cooking stoves <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>     *Subject:*Re: [Stoves] WBT disagrements
>
>     Dear Kirk
>
>     I think your question was appropriate and the answers were
>     hopefully helpful. There are many lab based systems of
>     ‎measurement and sometimes only a few measurements are necessary
>     to make great progress in improving an existing product.
>
>     Something that can be separated ‎is this: Aprovecho is not 'the
>     WBT'. What they do and how they do it is not dependent on using
>     the WBT which is merely a fixed test sequence with a set of
>     measurements and calculations.
>
>     Philip's comment about the WBT telling you whether or not the
>     stove is improved is most pertinent. If the test didn't tell you
>     how it performed the first time, getting a different wrong answer
>     later may, or may not, be helpful. This is the crux of the problem.
>
>     Tuning a stove requires making refined measurements, not
>     generalizations. A series of small, say, 3% improvements can
>     result in a 12-15% improvement in fuel consumption or power change
>     time, or turn down ratio. If the test cannot reliably tell you the
>     change ‎for better or worse is 1% vs 4%, the results are guiding
>     you by chance.
>
>     A very carefully done experiment must, not should, deliver
>     reproducible results‎. Prof Lloyd has I think been the most
>     specific on this point, much more than most commenters. As an
>     experimentalist not familiar with small stoves, he was expecting
>     that stove performance tests would deliver the same sort of
>     replicability as other physics experiments. The WBT doesn't do
>     that because of the conceptual errors embedded in what it
>     measures, when, and how it calculates the outputs.
>
>     On the face of it, why should the calculations make a result
>     variable? Dean once posted here that if there is a mistake that is
>     applied to every test, then it is not important.
>
>     The difficulty is that the mistakes manifest errors unequally in
>     different stove types, additional to the variability created by
>     conceptual errors. Prof Lloyd was forced to abandon the WBT in
>     favour of a method without those errors in order to continue his
>     work.
>
>     Thank you for participating offlist in the discussions. ‎Xavier
>     are I are discussing the preparation of a spreadsheet with a
>     number of tabs, one each for different versions of the WBT and
>     CCT. Putting in the lab info from a test will create copies of the
>     test on each tab with the different calculations so the outputs
>     can be compared. I think we will be able to find 12 versions of
>     the calculations, maybe 15.
>
>     We can also prepare one tab without the errors. This will be the
>     formulas to be applied that are developed from first principles as
>     per the HTP/CSI where the requested metric is calculated from only
>     the necessary measurements made to achieve it.
>
>     Given the limitation of the test sequence itself,, high, high, low
>     power, it would give 'an answer' that could be used to compare the
>     performance of two slightly different versions of a stove, or
>     different fuels, pots, ambient temperature and so on.
>
>     In South Africa, any kerosene stove tested in Johannesburg or
>     similar altitude must also have an emissions test conducted at a
>     coastal location. Similarly in reverse. The performance on such a
>     pair of tests must be highly reproducible.
>
>     Such a comparison sheet can be very helpful for convincing the
>     casual user that only the corrected version should be relied upon.
>     Failing that, we must retire, as there are always going to be
>     those who will not make the effort to understand the
>     technicalities of the field in which they choose to dabble.
>
>     After that comes the issue of contextuality. If the WBT with
>     'standard wood'‎ is used to develop a stove that will be used to
>     simmer soup burning dung, there is no hope. It would be like
>     perfecting a gasoline engine for 89 octane fuel then operating it
>     with diesel oil.
>
>     All stoves are used in some context so the assessment will be most
>     relevant, even for internal metrics for sub-systems, if the test
>     conditions are relevant to the expected pattern of use. The WBT is
>     advertised as a 'cooking simulation'. That's OK. Pick and report.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Crispin
>
>     All,
>
>     I recently asked a question about whether the disagreement with
>     the WBT included the sensors, filters and computer graphing as
>     well as the water boiling portion of the overall test.  I have
>     received several responses from Crispin and Xavier (some off
>     list).  From all that was said by them I have assembled an
>     answer:  The sensors, filters and computer read-outs are part of
>     the WBT, but not part of the disagreement with the WBT.  So this
>     disagreement is with a portion of the WBT test, not all of it. 
>     Also, I believe that Crispin has a second disagreement that
>     questions whether some sensors and setups are able to provide
>     accurate read-outs.  I believe that this is a legitimate concern
>     for scientific study, however I also believe in different
>     standards for different purposes.  Perfection is not always needed.
>
>     This is an acceptable answer for me.  It is not pro or con to the
>     WBT or any protocol.  My question was intentionally neutral. I
>     just wanted to know the extent of the disagreement.
>
>     My position on the WBT remains neutral.  I use it because it is
>     available for me in a lab, whereas the other protocols are not.
>     The WBT does very well for what I need.  It tells me if a change
>     in the stove is helpful or not. Whether or not it is perfect
>     science is not important for my interests.
>
>     I believe that Aprovecho (ARC) plays an important part for wood
>     stove development and education and I remain a supporter.
>
>     Kirk H.
>
>     Sent fromMail
>     <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cae298e4088bd4d17bcf608d5570c4bc2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636510632671079450&sdata=sRvB55V8H7%2BEg%2Ble5sqvvCUuMYdSNAqb9HGdcp%2FP9yM%3D&reserved=0>for
>     Windows 10
>
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