[Stoves] [biochar] Methane from char-makers [1 Attachment]

Sat Feb 23 07:48:00 CST 2019

According to the EPA, the GWP or Global Warming Potential, of methane is 25.

As for emissions, I am personally surprised by any claim that TLUDs emit
methane. The entire point of a good stack is to encourage methane to burn
at a high temp to break down other GHGs. Certainly none of our emissions
tests has registered any CH4.

Out here it is nigh on impossible to get a closed room for testing
emissions from a trough or trench. (Thai universities see no interest in
uncompensated research in the public good.) The water wrapped methane
molecules strikes me as improbable, although I think that the suggested
risk to the climate is so great that someone needs to re-run these
emissions tests immediately.

M

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM 'Anderson, Paul' psanders at ilstu.edu [biochar]
<biochar at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
> [Attachment(s) <#m_4012556554620465370_TopText> from Anderson, Paul
> included below]
>
> To all,
>
>
>
> The message from Hans-Peter (HPS) is important about emissions from
> cookstoves AND from char-making devices.   The focus is on methane
> emissions.   Some comments, based on a rapid look at the 2 articles
> attached, which should be studied by the chemists and emissions specialists
> in our groups.
>
>
>
> 1.  Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results?  (be
> sure Jim Jetter sees this.)
>
> 2.  HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times
> worse.   Which is it?
>
> 3.  Major comment by HPS:  “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water
> vapor which prevent its combustion.”   Correct or not?   Can it be
> explained more fully?   And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel,
> right?  (meaning changing our stoves?)
>
> 4.   I take issue with one comment from table 4 on page 12 (of 16 in Kon
> Tiki article) about disadvantage of TLUD stoves:  “Too small to generate
> larger amounts of biochar.”     THAT statement is the perspective of a
> SINGLE stove.   But when they are used by the thousands, each 1200 TLUD
> stoves produce about one ton of char/biochar EACH DAY.    36,000 in West
> Bengal are producing about 30 tons per day, every day, and have been doing
> so for a few years, and will continue.   On a worldwide scale today, that
> much charcoal is probably more than that of all the flame-cap devices
> combined on a daily basis.   (That last statemen can be challenge if anyone
> has and data.)
>
>
>
> AND the heat energy is not being wasted when TLUD stoves make
> charcoal.      Although the comment in the table overlooks the importance
> of “scale by number” (instead of “scale by size”), I am glad that the TLUD
> stoves were at least mentioned in the report and Table.   That is progress
> over being totally ignored.
>
>
>
> I hope that there is substantial discussion about the methane topic.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2019 12:29 AM
> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Cc:* Kathleen Draper <draper at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Please find attached our paper on low tech pyrolysis emissions. The
> CH4-emissions of TLUD and Kon-Tikis are in the same order. Optimization of
> gas combustion and especially the use of dry feedstock can greatly reduce
> CH4-emissions of both. CH4-emissions of forest wild fires are in the some
> order as optimized Kon-Tiki (see the other attached paper). In field
> burning of  harvest residues produce more methane especially when the
> residues are humid as is often the case.
>
> The quantity of emitted methane may not look high but as the Global
> Warming Potential (GWP) of methane is about 100 times that of CO2 in the
> first 20 years, the climate effect of rather low CH4-quantities is already
> considerable.
>
> The problem with methane in all low-tech pyrolysis systems is that methane
> molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.
>
> Be well, Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Datum: *Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 um 04:25
> *An: *"Schmidt, Hans-Peter" <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Cc: *"biochar at yahoogroups.com" <biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Betreff: *RE: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hans-Peter,
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> There was no attached graph.   Please send.
>
>
>
> I am assuming that you are not subscribed to the Biochar Listserv because
> you do not send replies to that address.   So I am forwarding your very
> valuable comments to the Biochar listserv.   More comments are below.
>
>
>
>
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:01 PM
> *To:* Anderson, Paul <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> ... considering that 40 t DM of biomass per ha is what can be expected in
> tropical carbon farming systems, the 1500 t of biomass necessary for one
> standard size E-pyrolysis would need about 40 ha. And even when they do not
> achieve those numbers in productivity in the first years, with 100 – 200 ha
> there would be enough biomass per village. In the tropics, this is more or
> less year around, and the machines can work in continuous processes.
>
>
>
> *[PSA>>]  The above is a valuable statement.   DM is “dry matter”,
> right?     Just knowing about 40 t/ha/year would require 40 ha, and then to
> have extra, allow up to 100 or 200 ha.   100 ha is NOT a very big area; it
> is only 1 sq km.*
>
> *So a safe easy statement is that there can  be sufficient biomass to
> produce 1 t of char per day for a year from a area the size of about 1 sq
> km.   *
>
> *??? Did I say that correctly?   We do not want to be saying things that
> we later need to retract.   *
>
> *???? Maybe others who are in the tropical settings (Thailand, Uganda,
> etc.) could comment about this.*
>
>
>
> The US$ 50.000 estimate are based on our experimental E-Pyrolysis data,
> the Pyreg 1 t BC per day systems and experiences with other rotary kiln
> systems.
>
> *[PSA>>] I looked up the Pyreg rotary kiln.   Nice video of a small model
> at *
>
> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ>*
>
> *???Where is there some info of a larger unit that does 1 t BC per day?
> Or was that a calculated estimate of scale-up?   Either way, that is a good
> starting  point.*
>
>
>
> It is only an estimate but I do not see any that may increase the material
> and construction cost beyond 50.000 when it enters serial mass production.
> And I also think that 50.000 would be a kind of limit for investors to
> start upscaling.
>
> *[PSA>>] I agree.   The $50,000 is not a trivial amount and could be the
> limit for investors.   And that is ONLY based on when serial mass
> production is possible.   *
>
> *??? Statement:   What the world needs is a 1 t of BC per day system that
> costs only $25,000.    Is that a good goal or “dream”???   Would that price
> make the production  of biochar become a major factor quickly???    I would
> like several people to comment about this.   Not just Hans-Peter has
> answers.   Comments from all are appreciated.*
>
>
>
>
>
> The methane emissions shown in the graph are based on our Kon-Tiki paper
> (attached). The data are even much worse when the feedstock is not
> completely dry. We are going to publish a paper about it within the next
> months.
>
> *[PSA>>] As said before, please send the graph.   I really did not
> associate methane with burning of biomass.   I need some instruction.
> Does an open fire (bonfire or campfire or 3-stone fire) put out
> considerable methane emissions?   The testing of cookstoves does NOT have a
> methane concern!!!!    So is it something about the flame-cap of the
> Kon-Tiki  and other open cone kilns that “causes” the methane to be created
> and to escape??  Please help with this question.   I am still not
> understanding about methane for such fires.*
>
>
>
> *[PSA>>] Paul*
>
> Best, hp
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Datum: *Mittwoch, 20. Februar 2019 um 23:57
> *An: *'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <
> schmidt at ithaka-institut.org>, "biochar at yahoogroups.com" <
> biochar at yahoogroups.com>
> *Cc: *"Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
> *Betreff: *Webinar comments by Hans-Peter
>
>
>
> Hans-Peter,
>
>
>
> Just wondering, why do you think that the 1 t/day of char production would
> be a size that would be appropriate for villages?    We are discussing
> developing countries.  Would this be expected year round, or maybe only
> seasonally for 2 to 5 months (and then idle)?
>
>
>
> And where did the $50,000 price per pyrolyzer installation come from?   I
> am content if you say it was just a convenient number, but maybe you have
> some basis for it.
>
>
>
> *********
>
> Another question:
>
> I was surprised by your comment about the (relatively) high emissions of
> methane from the Kon Tiki (and other) flame-cap charmakers.   Any links to
> reports about this?   Why methane?   I would have more easily believe high
> PM or CO.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD
>
> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP
>
> Email:  psanders at ilstu.edu       Skype:   paultlud
>
> Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile: 309-531-4434
>
> Website:   www.drtlud.com
>
>
> __._,_.___
>
> Attachment(s) from Anderson, Paul | View attachments on the web
> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/attachments/465317892;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOTdhbms2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1NTA3NTk5NDE->
>
> 1 of 1 File(s)
> cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne.pdf
> <https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/22438052/1884038946/name/cornelissen-kon-tiki_2016_PLOSOne%2Epdf>
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> Posted by: "Anderson, Paul" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
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