[Stoves] Fwd: Fwd: Simple Modifications to Traditional Wood Cookstoves - Rocks and Clay Grates
K McLean
info at sun24.solar
Fri Jul 26 06:48:38 CDT 2019
Here is an SNV blog post
<http://www.snv.org/update/cooking-rocks-measuring-significant-fuel-savings-through-simple-solutions>
on
its testing of rock beds. Bastiaan Teune describes how their WBT and KPT
demonstrate a reduction in firewood by a third. He also discusses the high
adoption rate and scalability of rock beds.
I hope that some of you:
1. Compliment your cookstove projects with rock bed training.
2. Test variations/alternatives to rock beds
Kevin
On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 3:02 AM K McLean <kmclean56 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bastiaan Teune with SNV performed a simple WBT over floor tiles instead
> of the ground. The control stove had no rock bed.on the floor tiles and
> the test stove has a rock bed on the floor tiles. As expected, he needed
> less fuel and observed less smoke when using a rock bed.
>
> At the end, he poured water over the stoves. In the control stove, the
> water on the floor tiles "sizzled". In the test stove, the water only
> sizzled on the small rocks, not on the floor tiles. This indicates that
> one factor in the improved efficiency by using rock beds is probably that
> less heat is lost to the ground.
>
>
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> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 6:58 AM Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Rogerio, cc list
>>
>> Thanks. A few inserts below.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2019, at 5:47 PM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <
>> carneirodemiranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ron:
>>
>> Sorry for the slow response.
>>
>> This article you referred to is a very good one. Transition to LPG has
>> reached high levels in Brazil, nearly 95%, but to reach total and universal
>> access is been difficult. There are still families fully dependent on
>> fuelwood in isolated communities and the extreme poor, mostly in the north
>> and northeastern regions of the country. A recent set back to higher
>> fuelwood usage has been observed due the deep economic crises, but the new
>> government is apparently working on a new policy for LPG that will make it
>> affordable again. We are waiting to see it...
>>
>> A minor portion of families in these regions also use charcoal stove,
>> which could perhaps try TLUD stoves as alternative. Recently we saw a nice
>> TLUD developed in Honduras by iDE (an development NGO) with the help of
>> Paul Anderson, and professor Sergio Elarrat from the Federal University of
>> Pará state is interested in adapting such TLUD to the Amazon region.
>>
>>
>> *[RWLA: IDE is a Denver group. Any more names I can use locally?*
>>
>>
>> More answers below...
>>
>> Em seg, 3 de jun de 2019 às 00:14, Ronal Larson <
>> rongretlarson at comcast.net> escreveu:
>>
>>> To: Rogerio cc stoves. (Rogerio has a great history on stoves - and
>>> was one of the earliest stove list contributors (then in Nicaragua with
>>> Prolena))
>>>
>>> Thanks for these additional thoughts on modifying a traditional rocket -
>>> with a similar “sideways flame”.
>>>
>>> See a few questions below, but I also hope to get your reaction to
>>> apparently great changes (increases in wood stove use in Brazil - as
>>> subsidies have been greatly decreased for LPG. )
>>> This from reading: "The energy transition history of fuelwood
>>> replacement for liquefied petroleum gas in Brazilian households from 1920
>>> to 2016”, available, non-fee, at a Kirk Smith site:
>>> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53856e1ee4b00c6f1fc1f602/t/5b8976edaa4a99b00191295c/1535735539528/Coehlo+LPG+history+EP+18.pdf
>>>
>>> This would seem to be a tremendous opportunity for TLUDs and char-making
>>> stoves - especially because of Brazil's Terra Preta history. The above
>>> article emphasizes the importance of affordability - and charcoal-making
>>> stoves could have even negative costs.
>>>
>>> Can you comment on this aspect of the usual stoves on this list (yours
>>> not being typical - very handsome, but not apparently emphasizing minimum
>>> cost).
>>>
>>>
>>> (More below)
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Rogerio carneiro de miranda <
>>> carneirodemiranda at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Ron and stove colleagues:
>>>
>>> Indeed, very interesting what Kevin is doing with three stone fire to
>>> improve efficiency. Clever, and boy, it took more than 10k years to figure
>>> out such simple solution…….
>>>
>>>
>>> *RWL: Your store clearly uses a grate with a similar function to
>>> Kevin’s rocks. Kevin started with a metal grate.*
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding the rocket stoves, what I have done is what a call an extended
>>> rocket stove chamber. Usually an stand alone rocket stove supports only
>>> one pot under its combustion chamber, but if you add a griddle on top of
>>> it, you can use two or even three pots by channeling the hot gases under
>>> the griddle, before going to a chimney.
>>>
>>>
>>> *RWL: Does “plancha” mean the same as “griddle”? You are
>>> emphasizing no flame escape at each “pot-hole”. Should Kevin strive for
>>> same in some cases?*
>>>
>>> RCM> Yes, plancha is a griddle, but usually in Central America planchas
>>> are solid made of common sheet steel of 3 mm, with no holes on it. Not
>>> sure if such approach would help Kevin, since he is working with open fires.
>>>
>>> *[RWLA1: I’ll check with Kevin - but I like the idea.
>> In Ethiopia, enjira is cooked on flat plates - and flat plates might be a
>> low cost way of getting more pots in service. *
>>
>>
>>> My extended rocket stove does support two pots under the same combustion
>>> chamber, which basically I make a longer rocket stove ¨chimney¨, which
>>> does allow two pots above and on the same level. Of course, the fuel
>>> consumption is higher, 1.45 kg/hour in contrast with 0.9 kg/hour in a one
>>> pot stove.
>>>
>>>
>>> *[RWL. Can you also discuss TDR = turn down ratio.*
>>>
>> RCM> a correction ¨ My extended rocket stove does support two pots
>> *above* (not under) the same combustion chamber¨
>> The ratio in the Premium stove is 2.5 kg/hour at high power and about 0,5
>> kg at low power. The 1.45 kg/hour is a average.
>>
>> *[RWLA2. That is a turndown ratio (TDR) of 5. A good number for modern
>> US appliances.*
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I made this extended rocket stove in order to power a four burners
>>> Premium Ecostove, which has an one meter long griddle (4 pots holes), a 45
>>> liters oven, and a water coil heater. Basically, I get direct flames
>>> under the first two holes from the extended rocket chamber, and also flames
>>> onto the third hole by the suction from the chimney draft. On the fourth
>>> hole I usually get flames only when the stove is operating at full power.
>>>
>>> This new stove was developed in response to the Brazilian market, which
>>> liked the benefits of the rocket stove, but demanded a more powerful and
>>> useful stove. Here a link for a photo of our Premium Ecostove
>>> https://ecofogao.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/WhatsApp-Image-2018-07-16-at-10.44.02.jpeg
>>>
>>>
>>> See also Rogerio here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tNpSRhEeRI
>>>
>>> I think this list would like to understand your market. Is wood firing
>>> like yours competing now against LPG? On a cost basis - or what basis?
>>> Could char-making, if giving negative costs, be a plus?
>>>
>>
>> RCM> My market is mostly recreation, e.g. middle class families who
>> wants to gather family and friends during weekends and cook on their
>> woodstoves for fun and tradition. I also attend NGOs who wants to donate
>> improved woodstoves to the poorest in the northeast region, but it is a
>> small market.
>>
>> *[RWLA3: Both answers interesting. Let me know if you want
>> ammunition on why “improved **woodstoves” should always make char.*
>> For char-making, such stoves would need to cook more than one pot at
>> once, in order to be attractive here.
>>
>> *[RWLA4: I think this should be true for all stoves - which is why your
>> stoves, and Kevin’s, are exciting to me.*
>>
>>
>> *Ron*
>>
>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Rogério
>>>
>>>
>>> Em qui, 25 de abr de 2019 às 01:02, Ronal Larson <
>>> rongretlarson at comcast.net> escreveu:
>>>
>>>> List: cc Kevin M
>>>>
>>>> 1. This is to bring you up-to-date on Kevin McLean’s “zero cost”
>>>> stove work - that I have learned in the last 4 weeks.. This today is on
>>>> three (mainly one) new concepts (despite keeping the thread name). It has
>>>> applicability especially to those working with Rocket stoves - but I am
>>>> pretty sure he/we can find ways to work also with TLUDs.
>>>>
>>>> 2. After Kevin sent me 3 short videos a few days ago, we agreed there
>>>> could be great benefit to his and everybody’s stove research to get this
>>>> early work out for discussion. So this is to ask everyone to view Kevin’s
>>>> annotated 2 minute video on an approach I have not previously seen:
>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EJQEKKkMTQbcKn3kBC1YZ50oqtZPsbym/view.
>>>>
>>>> I am amazed that so much energy gets to the second pot (and he may
>>>> develop a 3 pot design, that also looks well worth the relatively small
>>>> added extra cost). No metals anywhere.
>>>> Anyone seen this before?
>>>>
>>>> 3. I will try to report soon on two other new (to me) very low cost
>>>> stove improvement areas on which Kevin has also been working - and which I
>>>> am unaware of any others pursuing:
>>>> - adding energy storage using movable hot rocks or bricks (headed to
>>>> hay baskets maybe?)
>>>> - making char while cooking (and NOT with TLUDs)
>>>> Can anyone give a lead to these storage and char-making areas?
>>>>
>>>> 4. The 4th area of our discussions since the message below still
>>>> seems brand new:
>>>> - improved air flow with 3-stones - using "rocks and clay grates” to
>>>> elevate the fuel.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Since Kevin is adamant on zero costs to users (and minimum costs
>>>> allowable when payback time is short), these ideas are not amenable to most
>>>> companies looking at the 3-stone-user market. Accordingly, Kevin will not
>>>> be patenting any of this - all 4 areas will be open source.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone working on any of these 4 areas? Or know of past results from
>>>> anywhere?
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
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