[Stoves] New (old) stove policy paper

Thu Jan 2 10:32:43 CST 2020

List et al:

	There is zero conflict in making char and cooking for others.  In fact the reverse, since the charcoal-making stove can be paid off faster.

Ron

> On Jan 1, 2020, at 10:54 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Ron
> 
> My first comment is that in Central Java, like many islands in the Indonesian Archipelago, something like 85% of rural domestic stoves are used to generate income, with many used 11 hours per day: 3 for. cooking and 8 cooking or processing food for income generation. 
> 
> I think you should start factoring this reality into your narrative about earning money with stoves. 
> 
> Regards 
> Crispin 
> 
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> Sent: January 1, 2020 9:48 PM
> To: stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Cc: ndesai at alum.mit.edu; crispinpigott at outlook.com; cookswelljikos at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] New (old) stove policy paper
> 
> List with ccs.
> 
> I may respond later to some of the following from Nikhil, but I still have to read the paper.
> 
> I have however just read a similar new-old (2014) paper that I hope others will disect/critique (I found it well done).  Disect especially in terms that Nikhil calls my “fad" - making money while cooking.  This second paper also doesn’t cover money making - but I like the seven main categories (31 subcategories) they have developed.  Comments on how this might be modified if using a stove that made money for the user (and I still can’t think of anything besides charcoal in that category).  Should governments take special (health, soil, climate, jobs, balance-of-trade, etc) efforts - different from past stove policy analyses (because of charcoal)?
> The paper is non-fee and it (and more) is at:  https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/ehp.1306639 <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fehp.niehs.nih.gov%2Fdoi%2Fpdf%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1306639&data=02%7C01%7C%7C229274fa85e64f97883308d78f4760dc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637135409316260264&sdata=Os2uEOo0ajNNyuFEyir57Mbh7niE4H9SPmdBFqlniEE%3D&reserved=0>. 
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
>> On Jan 1, 2020, at 8:39 PM, Nikhil Desai <pienergy2008 at gmail.com <mailto:pienergy2008 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Ron: 
>> 
>> I am shocked! Shocked!! Tickled! YOU didn't know THIS paper? 
>> 
>> I can now call myself an old man of "stoves" work as far as Washington policy realm is concerned. You and Crispin are newbies!  
>> 
>> It is NOT, in the World Bank terminology, a "policy paper". You read it wrong. It is a "technical paper". It does not talk about making money, your new fad. And yes, quite a bit has changed in the world, just that this paper was a product of a larger exercise whose details  results were never published. It has a lot of generalities without context, if I remember correctly. It's been 25 years. (No, climate change and CDR haven't changed a thing. They are rich folks' diversions, so as to keep failing, keep poor people poor while pocketing fees and appearing virtuous. 
>> 
>> Nor are all the authors "knowledgeable stove experts". Obviously your definition of "stove experts" is elastic and changes with your presumptions. These authors merely produced a cover for the large East-West Center exercise, probably because Kirk Smith was there at the time. 
>> 
>> It was, however, the first review paper issued as a proper World Bank report. Earlier, in 1983, Fernando Manibog at the Bank had published a review of stove programs in the Annual Review of Energy. And Gerry leach had been commissioned to prepare a Household Energy Databook in 1985/6. I suggest you look up both. They give an insight as to the "pioneering" work that has since dominated the vocabulary; good references. 
>> 
>> About this paper "What Makes People Cook with Improved Biomass Stoves?A Comparative International Review of Stove Programs - Douglas F. Barnes, Keith Openshaw,Kirk R. Smith, and Robert van der Plas " <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocuments.worldbank.org%2Fcurated%2Fen%2F738011468766789505%2Fpdf%2Fmulti-page.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C229274fa85e64f97883308d78f4760dc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637135409316320307&sdata=g4b0Ig3Hj4iPYum%2F7H1glZ4loKlIAAvn7xl1RqxJX2k%3D&reserved=0>: I can boast that I knew three of the authors since 1982 and the fourth since 1986. Two of them are in Washington still, the other two you know of. 
>> 
>> I hadn't known of its planning and drafts. I was in Addis in Nov 1992 and then for four months in 1993, when I saw the success of the Jiko adapted to Ethiopian cooking and the Mirte mtad being designed and tested with different materials. I was struck by the rapid transformation household energy markets in Addis - biomass stoves as well as electricity for injeras, straight from wood, also sparking off commercialization of injeras. 
>> 
>> This paper had nothing on it because the research design was set in early 1992. From what I recall, Bank clients had begun accepting finance for biomass stove programs beginning around 1986; the first proposals might have been as far back as 1978/9. There was a need for a review and this paper collated findings of tens of projects of various sizes and vintages to cook a hotchpotch, which I didn't particularly like. It did not reflect the complex realities of stove projects that are remotely directed and affected more by Washington bureaucrats' and academics' view of the world more than the difficulties of moving money via governments. 
>> 
>> My copy of this paper had my scribble on the cover page - "Other People's Money!". That's what makes people cook with improved biomass stoves, I showed to some authors a few years later when I had an office at the World Bank. 
>> 
>> My conclusion still remains the same - What makes people cook with improved biomass stoves? Other people's money." 
>> 
>> The real challenge is, how to make sure that money is used effectively - cooks USING the new devices - and not wasted on people who write papers without doing the hard work of project implementation. (Only one of these authors had that experience.)
>> 
>> Of course, the paper's conclusion in the Abstract still remain valid - " Modem, efficient biomass stoves can alleviate some of these problems by reducing some householders' cash outlays for fuel, diminishing the time others must spend to collect fuel, reducing air pollution, and relieving local pressure on wood resources. Yet despite the apparent benefits of improved stoves and a recent spate of "dissemination" programs, many developing-country households have failed to adopt them. "
>> 
>> Doug will be surprised that I agree with him. But of course, he and I both are fans of the word "Modern." 
>> 
>> Doug and Keith wrote a book 18 years later - "Cleaner Hearths, Better Homes" (Oxford 2012, with Priti Kumar). I criticized it, but find it valuable enough to keep it within reach from my desk. This book also has my snarky scribble on the inside cover page - "Not clean enough? Not good enough?" 
>> 
>> But THAT is the crux of my unhappiness with the nonsense of ISO metrics, tiers and protocols. If you get away from the silly notion that stove designers compete for these ISO ratings, you just might focus your work on what the cook finds clean enough and goood enough. The authors' use of the words "cleaner" and "better", combined, says everything that a policy and project planner needs to know. 
>> 
>> Have fun! Please tell us what you discovered in this "old" paper. 
>> 
>> N
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Nikhil Desai
>> (US +1) 202 568 5831
>> Skype: nikhildesai888
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:16 PM Ronal Larson <rongretlarson at comcast.net <mailto:rongretlarson at comcast.net>> wrote:
>> List:
>> 
>> I don’t recall this one:  http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/738011468766789505/pdf/multi-page.pdf <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocuments.worldbank.org%2Fcurated%2Fen%2F738011468766789505%2Fpdf%2Fmulti-page.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C229274fa85e64f97883308d78f4760dc%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637135409316320307&sdata=g4b0Ig3Hj4iPYum%2F7H1glZ4loKlIAAvn7xl1RqxJX2k%3D&reserved=0>  (from 1994 - before TLUDs or other char-making stoves were ever mentioned)
>> 
>> One question is - if a stove can make money vs save money - are there new or augmented policy options?
>> 
>> Another - has anything really changed in 25 years?  (Certainly climate change and CDR are new.)
>> 
>> I haven’t finished reading yet.  But it looks well done - by knowledgeable stove experts.
>> 
>> Ron
>> 
>> _________________ 

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