[Stoves] SPAM Re: SPAM Re: SPAM Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 149, Issue 10

Tue Jan 17 09:21:19 CST 2023

Dung has better uses than cooking fuel.  (Some of the nutrients for
fertilizing can be extracted by washing.)  But hundreds of millions will be
using dung as a cooking fuel for decades. Let's improve it.

We've also been testing dung sticks upright in a metal band.  Preliminary
results indicate they burn much hotter and cleaner than dung patties.  Here
is a video
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zlTqdTdTBOTlRUt55mPDlonCEvRzfdrL/view?usp=share_link>.
But this really needs to be tested in India by someone who cooks with dung
patties.

[image: Dung sticks in a metal band.jpeg]

Kevin

On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 2:41 PM Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org> wrote:

> Great.  Here are two videos from Kenya that show how to wash the fresh cow
> dung.  The third video from India shows how dung patties are made.
>
> Washing cow dung
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OOXB8wOOooracjDum2OIlQKqP1WyhSnf/view?usp=share_link>
> Straining cow dung
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KfBjSbbQKW0pmX7888OLTFBXnYLPW0qC/view?usp=share_link>
> Making dung patties <https://youtu.be/W8Nx-5kf-rs>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 2:17 PM Norman Baker <ntbakerphd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kevin;
>>
>> Document exactly how dung is prepared and what kind it is and we will try
>> to replicate for emissions testing.
>>
>> Norm
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 10:05 AM <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> wrote:
>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test
>>>       (K McLean)
>>>    2. Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test (Kevin McLean)
>>>    3. ***SPAM*** RE: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test
>>>       (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>>>    4. Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed
>>>       Test (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
>>>    5. Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed
>>>       Test (Kevin McLean)
>>>    6. Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed
>>>       Test (tmiles at trmiles.com)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:14:07 -0500
>>> From: K McLean <kmclean56 at gmail.com>
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>>         Failed Test
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <
>>> CALxcr-tjW-Z7ga11oymB-eXL0WA-umkisgajSemhdwmBW0bq9A at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hi Stanley,
>>>
>>> You inspired me.  I have colleagues in Uganda, Malawi and Kenya knee and
>>> elbow deep in dung testing your idea.  Great results so far.  They all
>>> find
>>> it very easy to soak dung and wring out the water with a woven plast 100
>>> kg
>>> grain bags (ubiquitous in Africa).  The solution is very brown and the
>>> washed dung is much lighter in color.  And when filtered through biochar,
>>> the brown water comes out clear.  Two of them have young plants to test
>>> the
>>> brown liquid and charged biochar on.  We are waiting on the patties to
>>> dry
>>> to test as cooking fuel.  This is exciting.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:03 PM Richard Stanley <rstanley at mind.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > So friends of the dung : Is there no word back from any of you, save
>>> tom ,
>>> > regarding the simple washing and seiving out of the dung to release
>>> liquid
>>> > fertilizer while preserving  the inherent lignin for use as a CL E A N
>>> > burning fuel?  ?
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> > On Jan 15, 2023, at 6:49 PM, Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ?
>>> > Also, Crispin.  Have you tested anything related to top-lit bundles in
>>> > bands?
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:49 PM Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Crispin,
>>> >>
>>> >> In high Mongolia, no crops or vegetables are grown so there is no need
>>> >> for fertilizer or biochar as a soil amendment, correct?
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:13 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> >> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Dear Ron and All
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I will consolidate several message responses.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > a.  We?d rather not cook with dung at all  (agreeing with Paul
>>> >>> Olivier below).
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There are a number of places where dung is used because it can he
>>> >>> accessed ?in house? for example in a crowded urban area without
>>> access to
>>> >>> purchased fuels.  The cow does the energy collection during the day
>>> and
>>> >>> provides it free to the family.  It is not only where alternative
>>> fuels are
>>> >>> absent.  If it is free and convenient, people use it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Just because fuel is free doesn?t mean it has to be burned badly.
>>> Just
>>> >>> because a fuel is burned badly doesn?t mean it cannot be burned
>>> cleanly.
>>> >>> Just because a fuel could make biochar doesn?t mean it is wise to do
>>> so.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > b.  We think making char apt to be cleaner and good for soil, but
>>> >>> carbon dioxide removal (CDR) may also mean one can make money while
>>> >>> cooking.  Might also save time for the cooks.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Many people have no soil, and cannot grow anything in the soil they
>>> have
>>> >>> access to.  This is generally true for all high altitude locations
>>> where
>>> >>> dung burning in a rural area is widespread. Such areas include the
>>> whole of
>>> >>> the northern and southern Himalayas.  In the Pamir of Tajikistan, if
>>> you do
>>> >>> not burn dung, you die.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > c.   We are unaware of any char-making stoves using dung (because
>>> dung
>>> >>> is so non-dense - need a lot more volume.)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is a good point. If you have to collect and (usually) process
>>> the
>>> >>> dung, the resulting fuel is not very energy dense, meaning available
>>> >>> MJ/kg.  Plus it is not dense kg/m3.  If you are creating char from a
>>> >>> low energy fuel, it is not wise in terms of effort.  If you only get
>>> 1/3 of
>>> >>> the available energy because the rest is tied up in char, you will
>>> have to
>>> >>> collect 3 times are much fuel.  Who is going to do that?!  People
>>> are not
>>> >>> crazy.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > 5.  Other:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>                    a.  Anyone think that the present users of
>>> >>> dung-burning stoves in Mongolia and similar would surely or
>>> not-at-all
>>> >>> welcome such a stove?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The photo Paul sent of a ?dung burning stove? shown a box with a
>>> chimney
>>> >>> ? typical of all Mongolian local baseline products.  There is nothing
>>> >>> ?dung-burning? about the design.  They are typically made from 2mm
>>> steel
>>> >>> sheet and are good space heaters ? with wood or dung.  As wood
>>> burners they
>>> >>> tend to be pretty good, but they are terrible coal stoves which is
>>> the
>>> >>> preferred urban fuel.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> A reasonably designed dung-burning stove such as the KG2.5
>>> >>> <
>>> http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model2.5/
>>> >
>>> >>> produced in Bishkek has staged combustion and the ability to cook at
>>> least
>>> >>> two pots ? water heating being a major need.  Stoves, when not
>>> cooking, are
>>> >>> often heating 3 containers of water.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Anyone able to confirm those are from horses?  Maybe Yaks?   If
>>> >>> guaranteed to be horse dung, then we don?t need zoos.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dung source depends of geography and climate.   Yaks can live on very
>>> >>> poor grasses (like bison) and excrete modestly sized pellets. Bigger
>>> than a
>>> >>> horse (?road apples?) and much smaller than cattle.  In the high cold
>>> >>> regions, dung dries rapidly however it is often collected, wetted,
>>> and
>>> >>> mixed with chopped grass, for instance in southern Tibet.  The
>>> reason is an
>>> >>> absolute scarcity of fuel.  If they were to make char, they would
>>> freeze
>>> >>> due to lack of energy.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > There is not much wood to burn in Mongolia.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There is a massive amount of wood to burn in Mongolia, depending on
>>> >>> where you are of course.  North of Ulaanbaatar there are huge
>>> forests.  The
>>> >>> sawmills create enormous piles of sawdust which, when the market
>>> conditions
>>> >>> are right, is made into wood pellets or briquettes.  But only some.
>>> Most
>>> >>> is too far away to complete with chopped and split wood.  I estimate
>>> thar
>>> >>> the population of UB burns more than 100,000 tons of wood each
>>> winter.  It
>>> >>> is a preferred summer time fuel, where the stove is removed to be
>>> used
>>> >>> outdoors (because it overheats the yurt).
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Wow. 2 billion dung-stove  users!.  I had not been paying
>>> attention to
>>> >>> the large number combusting dung  -  and do agree we should be
>>> trying to
>>> >>> improve its combustion in cookstoves.   It might even be possible to
>>> make
>>> >>> them fairly clean.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Of course it is.  Burning low density fuels (not only dung) requires
>>> >>> particular air control and grate bar spacing.  It has very light ash
>>> so if
>>> >>> the fuel is burned completely, it has rather a lot of fine white ash
>>> which
>>> >>> can be lofted easily.  That needs consideration.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >But I think it much better to promote a switch to charcoal-making
>>> >>> stoves.   Not just for dung, but for every fuel.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It is OK to think that, just don?t expect people to act on it.
>>> Doing so
>>> >>> for most dung burning region would impose a huge additional
>>> labour-burden
>>> >>> on women, in particular.  Gender rights advocates should rise up as
>>> One to
>>> >>> protest any plan to enforce dung-burning char-making stoves on
>>> anyone.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >And we need urgently to be practicing carbon dioxide removal (CDR).
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You want the energy-poorest people in the world to get involved in
>>> CO2
>>> >>> removal?  How more anti-poor can a policy possibly be?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > 3.   Re TLUDs and dung, I found TLIUD support in this 2014 non-fee
>>> >>> paper:    A Biochar-producing, Dung-burning Cookstove for
>>> Humanitarian
>>> >>> Purposes
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ?Humanitarian?? How more anti-poor could a proposal be?  Go to
>>> southern
>>> >>> Tibet.  Altitude, 16,000 ft.  Nothing except grass and the occasional
>>> >>> rhododendron can grow there. Either you live on animal products, or
>>> >>> imported food, or you die.  No one is going to waste 2/3 of their
>>> available
>>> >>> energy supply to appease rich, Western climate fanatics.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Cooking with dung is exceptionally dirty.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Nonsense.  Cooking with a stove not designed for dung is ?dirty?.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > I'm working with a group that is trying to slow glacial melt in the
>>> >>> Himalayas.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Then develop a clear burning stove combustor, and while you are at
>>> it,
>>> >>> make it more thermally efficient so the mass needed per winter is
>>> reduced
>>> >>> by, say, 50%.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >And I agree that it would be best if everyone used cooking methods
>>> that
>>> >>> are cleaner than burning dung.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I pressure you have never seen a good dung burning stoves.  There is
>>> no
>>> >>> ?dirt? in dung. There is no ?smoke?.  Smoke is produced by stoves not
>>> >>> burning it properly.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >Dung is not a good fuel.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Second opinion: Dung is a good fuel. Most stoves that burn it (not
>>> all)
>>> >>> are absolute crap.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >Today we tested a dung rocket stove.  I'm a little surprised that
>>> the
>>> >>> test was a failure.  Can anyone suggest changes?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is a big ask. An whole theory of combustion is needed to address
>>> >>> the matter.  The consolidation of the dung into a large single mass
>>> cause a
>>> >>> lot of the problems. That is not how to prepare dung.  A great deal
>>> can be
>>> >>> learned by observing people who use it.  Here is a Tajik dung
>>> burning stove
>>> >>> loaded before ignition:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> <image001.png>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Note the large pieces of wood used to establish a hot coal bed.
>>> Once it
>>> >>> is going well, the fire will be pushed to the far end of the chamber
>>> and
>>> >>> new fuel added at the door. No fuel is placed on top of a going
>>> fire.  This
>>> >>> arrangement is very clean burning.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This lady was involved in stove promotion for three years before
>>> seeing
>>> >>> this simple, locally designed dung burning stove.  She tried it and
>>> said it
>>> >>> was the first time in three years of promoting ISC that the ?was
>>> excited?
>>> >>> about a stove.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> <image002.png>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The combustion is at the back under the big pot.  The water warming
>>> is
>>> >>> at the front, not at the back, and it was very clean burning ? even
>>> though
>>> >>> at this time the design was primitive.  The KG2.5 came after 3 years
>>> of
>>> >>> further development and is significantly more efficient, cleaner
>>> burning
>>> >>> and burns for far longer on a load of fuel.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is dung preparation in rural Tajikistan:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> <image003.png>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is one of several typical preparations. The diameter is about 5
>>> >>> inches.  The format suits poorly designed stoves with high excess
>>> air.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is Umedjani Kurbon, aged 12, who is the operator of the CNC
>>> plasma
>>> >>> cutter.  He got the responsibility because he could read and do
>>> simple
>>> >>> arithmetic.  He had never received any instructions on how to use it
>>> >>> properly.  If you zoom the screen, you can see the standard shapes
>>> from
>>> >>> which to select a cut.  They owned no computer on which they could to
>>> >>> prepare whole parts. This gives you an idea of the conditions in
>>> which
>>> >>> producers live.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >The fire was never strong and there was a lot of smoke.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is not surprising because, with good intentions, you were
>>> guessing.
>>> >>> Now you know several things not to do. It might have done better if
>>> it have
>>> >>> been dried at 105 C for a couple of days.  But I doubt it. It has to
>>> have a
>>> >>> certain surface-to-volume ratio and controlled primary air to burn
>>> >>> cleanly.  The total surface burning at any one time sets the
>>> firepower.  If
>>> >>> you break each piece of fuel in half, it will increase the
>>> gasification
>>> >>> (devolatilisation) rate.  A certain primary air flow is required for
>>> each
>>> >>> surface area burn, and a separate secondary air flow is needed that
>>> relates
>>> >>> to that gasification rate. You should aim for an oxygen
>>> concentration of
>>> >>> 10% in the exhaust.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Good luck!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Crispin
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> New Dawn Engineering Inc.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> P.O. Box 3
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Alberta Beach, Alberta
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Canada T0E 0A0
>>> >>>
>>> >>> www.newdawnengineering.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Research & Design Office
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 5011 Crestview Drive
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Val Quentin , Alberta
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Canada, T0E 0A0
>>> >>>
>>> >>> +1-519-886-7772
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Mobile
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Canada +1-519-729-3442 + WhatsApp + WeChat
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Email: crispinpigott at outlook.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>> crispin at newdawnengineering.com
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Stoves mailing list
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>>> >>>
>>> >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
>>> site:
>>> >>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>> >>>
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>>> >
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:26:17 -0500
>>> From: Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org>
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CALxcr-tczM=XAR1jLfWKa665N0YOF=_
>>> VWPhwg7Zxb5ARKBUc-g at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> I think the upright fuel enables just the tips to burn.  Much more
>>> efficient.  My guess is that air comes up from below into the low
>>> pressure
>>> created by the flame keeping the fire somewhat controlled as it burns
>>> down.  And allowing for a more complete and clean combustion.  You and
>>> others with a better background can figure this out.  I hope you improve
>>> it.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:09 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear Kevin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I was so impressed with your attempts earlier to try this that I saved
>>> a
>>> > stash of corn stove/stalks from the garden intending to try it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I have almost completed by emissions evacuation system in the workshop
>>> and
>>> > will at some point try it out.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I have some ideas about how it might work well.  I like the idea of
>>> using
>>> > a band to hold low density fuels which are tedious to burn otherwise.
>>> Too
>>> > much fiddling to push them in.  I saw this sort of cooking in Eastern
>>> Niger
>>> > with millet stalks ? the dominant fuel there.   If it is worked out
>>> well,
>>> > you should be able to promote it in the Sahel.  There are lots of
>>> people
>>> > who can work with metal (*forgerons*).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Regards
>>> >
>>> > Crispin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > *From:* Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> *On Behalf
>>> Of *Kevin
>>> > McLean
>>> > *Sent:* Sunday, January 15, 2023 17:44
>>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Also, Crispin.  Have you tested anything related to top-lit bundles in
>>> > bands?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:49 PM Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Crispin,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In high Mongolia, no crops or vegetables are grown so there is no need
>>> for
>>> > fertilizer or biochar as a soil amendment, correct?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:13 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> > crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear Ron and All
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I will consolidate several message responses.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > a.  We?d rather not cook with dung at all  (agreeing with Paul
>>> Olivier
>>> > below).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There are a number of places where dung is used because it can he
>>> accessed
>>> > ?in house? for example in a crowded urban area without access to
>>> purchased
>>> > fuels.  The cow does the energy collection during the day and provides
>>> it
>>> > free to the family.  It is not only where alternative fuels are
>>> absent.  If
>>> > it is free and convenient, people use it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Just because fuel is free doesn?t mean it has to be burned badly.  Just
>>> > because a fuel is burned badly doesn?t mean it cannot be burned
>>> cleanly.
>>> > Just because a fuel could make biochar doesn?t mean it is wise to do
>>> so.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > b.  We think making char apt to be cleaner and good for soil, but
>>> carbon
>>> > dioxide removal (CDR) may also mean one can make money while cooking.
>>> > Might also save time for the cooks.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Many people have no soil, and cannot grow anything in the soil they
>>> have
>>> > access to.  This is generally true for all high altitude locations
>>> where
>>> > dung burning in a rural area is widespread. Such areas include the
>>> whole of
>>> > the northern and southern Himalayas.  In the Pamir of Tajikistan, if
>>> you do
>>> > not burn dung, you die.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > c.   We are unaware of any char-making stoves using dung (because
>>> dung
>>> > is so non-dense - need a lot more volume.)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is a good point. If you have to collect and (usually) process the
>>> > dung, the resulting fuel is not very energy dense, meaning available
>>> > MJ/kg.  Plus it is not dense kg/m3.  If you are creating char from a
>>> low
>>> > energy fuel, it is not wise in terms of effort.  If you only get 1/3
>>> of the
>>> > available energy because the rest is tied up in char, you will have to
>>> > collect 3 times are much fuel.  Who is going to do that?!  People are
>>> not
>>> > crazy.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > 5.  Other:
>>> >
>>> >                    a.  Anyone think that the present users of
>>> dung-burning
>>> > stoves in Mongolia and similar would surely or not-at-all welcome such
>>> a
>>> > stove?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The photo Paul sent of a ?dung burning stove? shown a box with a
>>> chimney ?
>>> > typical of all Mongolian local baseline products.  There is nothing
>>> > ?dung-burning? about the design.  They are typically made from 2mm
>>> steel
>>> > sheet and are good space heaters ? with wood or dung.  As wood burners
>>> they
>>> > tend to be pretty good, but they are terrible coal stoves which is the
>>> > preferred urban fuel.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A reasonably designed dung-burning stove such as the KG2.5
>>> > <
>>> http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model2.5/
>>> >
>>> > produced in Bishkek has staged combustion and the ability to cook at
>>> least
>>> > two pots ? water heating being a major need.  Stoves, when not
>>> cooking, are
>>> > often heating 3 containers of water.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Anyone able to confirm those are from horses?  Maybe Yaks?   If
>>> > guaranteed to be horse dung, then we don?t need zoos.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Dung source depends of geography and climate.   Yaks can live on very
>>> poor
>>> > grasses (like bison) and excrete modestly sized pellets. Bigger than a
>>> > horse (?road apples?) and much smaller than cattle.  In the high cold
>>> > regions, dung dries rapidly however it is often collected, wetted, and
>>> > mixed with chopped grass, for instance in southern Tibet.  The reason
>>> is an
>>> > absolute scarcity of fuel.  If they were to make char, they would
>>> freeze
>>> > due to lack of energy.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > There is not much wood to burn in Mongolia.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There is a massive amount of wood to burn in Mongolia, depending on
>>> where
>>> > you are of course.  North of Ulaanbaatar there are huge forests.  The
>>> > sawmills create enormous piles of sawdust which, when the market
>>> conditions
>>> > are right, is made into wood pellets or briquettes.  But only some.
>>> Most
>>> > is too far away to complete with chopped and split wood.  I estimate
>>> thar
>>> > the population of UB burns more than 100,000 tons of wood each
>>> winter.  It
>>> > is a preferred summer time fuel, where the stove is removed to be used
>>> > outdoors (because it overheats the yurt).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Wow. 2 billion dung-stove  users!.  I had not been paying attention
>>> to
>>> > the large number combusting dung  -  and do agree we should be trying
>>> to
>>> > improve its combustion in cookstoves.   It might even be possible to
>>> make
>>> > them fairly clean.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Of course it is.  Burning low density fuels (not only dung) requires
>>> > particular air control and grate bar spacing.  It has very light ash
>>> so if
>>> > the fuel is burned completely, it has rather a lot of fine white ash
>>> which
>>> > can be lofted easily.  That needs consideration.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >But I think it much better to promote a switch to charcoal-making
>>> stoves.
>>> >   Not just for dung, but for every fuel.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > It is OK to think that, just don?t expect people to act on it.  Doing
>>> so
>>> > for most dung burning region would impose a huge additional
>>> labour-burden
>>> > on women, in particular.  Gender rights advocates should rise up as
>>> One to
>>> > protest any plan to enforce dung-burning char-making stoves on anyone.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >And we need urgently to be practicing carbon dioxide removal (CDR).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You want the energy-poorest people in the world to get involved in CO2
>>> > removal?  How more anti-poor can a policy possibly be?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > 3.   Re TLUDs and dung, I found TLIUD support in this 2014 non-fee
>>> > paper:    A Biochar-producing, Dung-burning Cookstove for Humanitarian
>>> > Purposes
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ?Humanitarian?? How more anti-poor could a proposal be?  Go to southern
>>> > Tibet.  Altitude, 16,000 ft.  Nothing except grass and the occasional
>>> > rhododendron can grow there. Either you live on animal products, or
>>> > imported food, or you die.  No one is going to waste 2/3 of their
>>> available
>>> > energy supply to appease rich, Western climate fanatics.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Cooking with dung is exceptionally dirty.
>>> >
>>> > Nonsense.  Cooking with a stove not designed for dung is ?dirty?.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > I'm working with a group that is trying to slow glacial melt in the
>>> > Himalayas.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Then develop a clear burning stove combustor, and while you are at it,
>>> > make it more thermally efficient so the mass needed per winter is
>>> reduced
>>> > by, say, 50%.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >And I agree that it would be best if everyone used cooking methods
>>> that
>>> > are cleaner than burning dung.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I pressure you have never seen a good dung burning stoves.  There is no
>>> > ?dirt? in dung. There is no ?smoke?.  Smoke is produced by stoves not
>>> > burning it properly.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >Dung is not a good fuel.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Second opinion: Dung is a good fuel. Most stoves that burn it (not all)
>>> > are absolute crap.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >Today we tested a dung rocket stove.  I'm a little surprised that the
>>> > test was a failure.  Can anyone suggest changes?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is a big ask. An whole theory of combustion is needed to address
>>> the
>>> > matter.  The consolidation of the dung into a large single mass cause
>>> a lot
>>> > of the problems. That is not how to prepare dung.  A great deal can be
>>> > learned by observing people who use it.  Here is a Tajik dung burning
>>> stove
>>> > loaded before ignition:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Note the large pieces of wood used to establish a hot coal bed.  Once
>>> it
>>> > is going well, the fire will be pushed to the far end of the chamber
>>> and
>>> > new fuel added at the door. No fuel is placed on top of a going fire.
>>> This
>>> > arrangement is very clean burning.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This lady was involved in stove promotion for three years before seeing
>>> > this simple, locally designed dung burning stove.  She tried it and
>>> said it
>>> > was the first time in three years of promoting ISC that the ?was
>>> excited?
>>> > about a stove.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The combustion is at the back under the big pot.  The water warming is
>>> at
>>> > the front, not at the back, and it was very clean burning ? even
>>> though at
>>> > this time the design was primitive.  The KG2.5 came after 3 years of
>>> > further development and is significantly more efficient, cleaner
>>> burning
>>> > and burns for far longer on a load of fuel.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is dung preparation in rural Tajikistan:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is one of several typical preparations. The diameter is about 5
>>> > inches.  The format suits poorly designed stoves with high excess air.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is Umedjani Kurbon, aged 12, who is the operator of the CNC plasma
>>> > cutter.  He got the responsibility because he could read and do simple
>>> > arithmetic.  He had never received any instructions on how to use it
>>> > properly.  If you zoom the screen, you can see the standard shapes from
>>> > which to select a cut.  They owned no computer on which they could to
>>> > prepare whole parts. This gives you an idea of the conditions in which
>>> > producers live.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >The fire was never strong and there was a lot of smoke.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is not surprising because, with good intentions, you were
>>> guessing.
>>> > Now you know several things not to do. It might have done better if it
>>> have
>>> > been dried at 105 C for a couple of days.  But I doubt it. It has to
>>> have a
>>> > certain surface-to-volume ratio and controlled primary air to burn
>>> > cleanly.  The total surface burning at any one time sets the
>>> firepower.  If
>>> > you break each piece of fuel in half, it will increase the gasification
>>> > (devolatilisation) rate.  A certain primary air flow is required for
>>> each
>>> > surface area burn, and a separate secondary air flow is needed that
>>> relates
>>> > to that gasification rate. You should aim for an oxygen concentration
>>> of
>>> > 10% in the exhaust.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Good luck!
>>> >
>>> > Crispin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > New Dawn Engineering Inc.
>>> >
>>> > P.O. Box 3
>>> >
>>> > Alberta Beach, Alberta
>>> >
>>> > Canada T0E 0A0
>>> >
>>> > www.newdawnengineering.com
>>> > <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newdawnengineering.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C62f11d8b6bfe44f7f48b08daf75bfe26%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638094271768454569%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2B%2F6P%2FH1xUp01dRDD6cl6Wyr0r%2Baz%2BxJN1pbaZQpzJ2w%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Research & Design Office
>>> >
>>> > 5011 Crestview Drive
>>> >
>>> > Val Quentin , Alberta
>>> >
>>> > Canada, T0E 0A0
>>> >
>>> > +1-519-886-7772
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Mobile
>>> >
>>> > Canada +1-519-729-3442 + WhatsApp + WeChat
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Email: crispinpigott at outlook.com
>>> >
>>> > crispin at newdawnengineering.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Stoves mailing list
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>>> >
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>>> > <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fstoves_lists.bioenergylists.org&data=05%7C01%7C%7C62f11d8b6bfe44f7f48b08daf75bfe26%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638094271768454569%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HbCglKCbmQpod%2BUt7egqR4OtBnxlzDwKuMnMWi3qu9E%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
>>> site:
>>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>> > <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstoves.bioenergylists.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C62f11d8b6bfe44f7f48b08daf75bfe26%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638094271768454569%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DpAfHaNNmzfVC4NYM6k4Y6u8WVSVB8JGq0LGh7RWURU%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 01:27:00 +0000
>>> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** RE: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>>         Failed Test
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <
>>> MW4P223MB05620C0B9D7A38FBC06D1EADB1C19 at MW4P223MB0562.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
>>> >
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Dear Richard
>>>
>>> Inevitably there is some of that happening when the processors of dung
>>> cakes re?form the collected material into standard patties, but I do not
>>> th8ink this is deliberate.
>>>
>>> I was thinking of a completely unrelated use of dung that does related
>>> to the ?washing?.
>>>
>>> In the mid-70?s Peace Corp was conducting research in Uganda on using
>>> the highly acid water (which they called dung-water) to set clay.  This is
>>> an extremely low tech version of making a geopolymer.
>>>
>>> Dig two pits with a shallow channel allowing overflow from pit 1 to go
>>> to pit 2.
>>> Fill pit 1 with water and dung. Let it stew for a time.
>>> Slowly add water so that the upper level of the fluid flows/dribbles
>>> into pit 2.
>>> This washes the dung and concentrates the low pH fluid in pit 2.
>>>
>>> Take this ?concentrate? from pit 2 and mix it with particular type(s) of
>>> clay and pound into used shapes like foundations for houses.
>>>
>>> If the clay is right, and the concentrate is adequate, there is a
>>> chemical reaction that sets the clay hard enough to take running water
>>> flowing over it for years.  It was advocated as away to improve houses
>>> without cement.  A brochure was produced and I saw one in 1977 in
>>> Swaziland. I understand now, having read a lot, that it is a primitive way
>>> to make an alkaline based geopolymer. It can have a pH of 8 to 12.  At 10
>>> it is already ideal for geopolymer as long as you know exactly what you
>>> have in have with the clay.  It is much more likely that blending clays or
>>> crushed/powdered rock will deliver the right Si:O:Al ratio to make a decent
>>> geopolymer.  It has to be quite precise to get a =SI=O=Al=Si=Al=O=?.
>>> material.  There are many variations of that.   Fired geopolymers might
>>> make very good combustion chambers.  I have seen samples.
>>>
>>> There are hints here<mailto:https://
>>> www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/could-ancient-peruvians-soften-stone-00847>
>>> for how geopolymers used to be made but the real deal is the book
>>> ?Geopolymers? (5th edition) by Prof Joseph Davidovits.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of
>>> Richard Stanley
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2023 17:58
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove - Failed Test
>>>
>>> So friends of the dung : Is there no word back from any of you, save tom
>>> , regarding the simple washing and seiving out of the dung to release
>>> liquid fertilizer while preserving  the inherent lignin for use as a CL E A
>>> N burning fuel?  ?
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 15, 2023, at 6:49 PM, Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org<mailto:
>>> kevin at sun24.org>> wrote:
>>> ?
>>> Also, Crispin.  Have you tested anything related to top-lit bundles in
>>> bands?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:49 PM Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org<mailto:
>>> kevin at sun24.org>> wrote:
>>> Crispin,
>>>
>>> In high Mongolia, no crops or vegetables are grown so there is no need
>>> for fertilizer or biochar as a soil amendment, correct?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 4:13 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> crispinpigott at outlook.com<mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Ron and All
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will consolidate several message responses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > a.  We?d rather not cook with dung at all  (agreeing with Paul Olivier
>>> below).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are a number of places where dung is used because it can he
>>> accessed ?in house? for example in a crowded urban area without access to
>>> purchased fuels.  The cow does the energy collection during the day and
>>> provides it free to the family.  It is not only where alternative fuels are
>>> absent.  If it is free and convenient, people use it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just because fuel is free doesn?t mean it has to be burned badly.  Just
>>> because a fuel is burned badly doesn?t mean it cannot be burned cleanly.
>>> Just because a fuel could make biochar doesn?t mean it is wise to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > b.  We think making char apt to be cleaner and good for soil, but
>>> carbon dioxide removal (CDR) may also mean one can make money while
>>> cooking.  Might also save time for the cooks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many people have no soil, and cannot grow anything in the soil they have
>>> access to.  This is generally true for all high altitude locations where
>>> dung burning in a rural area is widespread. Such areas include the whole of
>>> the northern and southern Himalayas.  In the Pamir of Tajikistan, if you do
>>> not burn dung, you die.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > c.   We are unaware of any char-making stoves using dung (because dung
>>> is so non-dense - need a lot more volume.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good point. If you have to collect and (usually) process the
>>> dung, the resulting fuel is not very energy dense, meaning available
>>> MJ/kg.  Plus it is not dense kg/m3.  If you are creating char from a low
>>> energy fuel, it is not wise in terms of effort.  If you only get 1/3 of the
>>> available energy because the rest is tied up in char, you will have to
>>> collect 3 times are much fuel.  Who is going to do that?!  People are not
>>> crazy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > 5.  Other:
>>>
>>>                    a.  Anyone think that the present users of
>>> dung-burning stoves in Mongolia and similar would surely or not-at-all
>>> welcome such a stove?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The photo Paul sent of a ?dung burning stove? shown a box with a chimney
>>> ? typical of all Mongolian local baseline products.  There is nothing
>>> ?dung-burning? about the design.  They are typically made from 2mm steel
>>> sheet and are good space heaters ? with wood or dung.  As wood burners they
>>> tend to be pretty good, but they are terrible coal stoves which is the
>>> preferred urban fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A reasonably designed dung-burning stove such as the KG2.5<mailto:http
>>> ://
>>> www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model2.5/>
>>> produced in Bishkek has staged combustion and the ability to cook at least
>>> two pots ? water heating being a major need.  Stoves, when not cooking, are
>>> often heating 3 containers of water.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Anyone able to confirm those are from horses?  Maybe Yaks?   If
>>> guaranteed to be horse dung, then we don?t need zoos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dung source depends of geography and climate.   Yaks can live on very
>>> poor grasses (like bison) and excrete modestly sized pellets. Bigger than a
>>> horse (?road apples?) and much smaller than cattle.  In the high cold
>>> regions, dung dries rapidly however it is often collected, wetted, and
>>> mixed with chopped grass, for instance in southern Tibet.  The reason is an
>>> absolute scarcity of fuel.  If they were to make char, they would freeze
>>> due to lack of energy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > There is not much wood to burn in Mongolia.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a massive amount of wood to burn in Mongolia, depending on
>>> where you are of course.  North of Ulaanbaatar there are huge forests.  The
>>> sawmills create enormous piles of sawdust which, when the market conditions
>>> are right, is made into wood pellets or briquettes.  But only some.  Most
>>> is too far away to complete with chopped and split wood.  I estimate thar
>>> the population of UB burns more than 100,000 tons of wood each winter.  It
>>> is a preferred summer time fuel, where the stove is removed to be used
>>> outdoors (because it overheats the yurt).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Wow. 2 billion dung-stove  users!.  I had not been paying attention to
>>> the large number combusting dung  -  and do agree we should be trying to
>>> improve its combustion in cookstoves.   It might even be possible to make
>>> them fairly clean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Of course it is.  Burning low density fuels (not only dung) requires
>>> particular air control and grate bar spacing.  It has very light ash so if
>>> the fuel is burned completely, it has rather a lot of fine white ash which
>>> can be lofted easily.  That needs consideration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >But I think it much better to promote a switch to charcoal-making
>>> stoves.   Not just for dung, but for every fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is OK to think that, just don?t expect people to act on it.  Doing so
>>> for most dung burning region would impose a huge additional labour-burden
>>> on women, in particular.  Gender rights advocates should rise up as One to
>>> protest any plan to enforce dung-burning char-making stoves on anyone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >And we need urgently to be practicing carbon dioxide removal (CDR).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You want the energy-poorest people in the world to get involved in CO2
>>> removal?  How more anti-poor can a policy possibly be?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > 3.   Re TLUDs and dung, I found TLIUD support in this 2014 non-fee
>>> paper:    A Biochar-producing, Dung-burning Cookstove for Humanitarian
>>> Purposes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?Humanitarian?? How more anti-poor could a proposal be?  Go to southern
>>> Tibet.  Altitude, 16,000 ft.  Nothing except grass and the occasional
>>> rhododendron can grow there. Either you live on animal products, or
>>> imported food, or you die.  No one is going to waste 2/3 of their available
>>> energy supply to appease rich, Western climate fanatics.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Cooking with dung is exceptionally dirty.
>>>
>>> Nonsense.  Cooking with a stove not designed for dung is ?dirty?.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > I'm working with a group that is trying to slow glacial melt in the
>>> Himalayas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then develop a clear burning stove combustor, and while you are at it,
>>> make it more thermally efficient so the mass needed per winter is reduced
>>> by, say, 50%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >And I agree that it would be best if everyone used cooking methods that
>>> are cleaner than burning dung.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I pressure you have never seen a good dung burning stoves.  There is no
>>> ?dirt? in dung. There is no ?smoke?.  Smoke is produced by stoves not
>>> burning it properly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >Dung is not a good fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Second opinion: Dung is a good fuel. Most stoves that burn it (not all)
>>> are absolute crap.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >Today we tested a dung rocket stove.  I'm a little surprised that the
>>> test was a failure.  Can anyone suggest changes?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a big ask. An whole theory of combustion is needed to address
>>> the matter.  The consolidation of the dung into a large single mass cause a
>>> lot of the problems. That is not how to prepare dung.  A great deal can be
>>> learned by observing people who use it.  Here is a Tajik dung burning stove
>>> loaded before ignition:
>>>
>>>
>>> <image001.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the large pieces of wood used to establish a hot coal bed.  Once it
>>> is going well, the fire will be pushed to the far end of the chamber and
>>> new fuel added at the door. No fuel is placed on top of a going fire.  This
>>> arrangement is very clean burning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This lady was involved in stove promotion for three years before seeing
>>> this simple, locally designed dung burning stove.  She tried it and said it
>>> was the first time in three years of promoting ISC that the ?was excited?
>>> about a stove.
>>>
>>>
>>> <image002.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The combustion is at the back under the big pot.  The water warming is
>>> at the front, not at the back, and it was very clean burning ? even though
>>> at this time the design was primitive.  The KG2.5 came after 3 years of
>>> further development and is significantly more efficient, cleaner burning
>>> and burns for far longer on a load of fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is dung preparation in rural Tajikistan:
>>> <image003.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is one of several typical preparations. The diameter is about 5
>>> inches.  The format suits poorly designed stoves with high excess air.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is Umedjani Kurbon, aged 12, who is the operator of the CNC plasma
>>> cutter.  He got the responsibility because he could read and do simple
>>> arithmetic.  He had never received any instructions on how to use it
>>> properly.  If you zoom the screen, you can see the standard shapes from
>>> which to select a cut.  They owned no computer on which they could to
>>> prepare whole parts. This gives you an idea of the conditions in which
>>> producers live.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >The fire was never strong and there was a lot of smoke.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not surprising because, with good intentions, you were guessing.
>>> Now you know several things not to do. It might have done better if it have
>>> been dried at 105 C for a couple of days.  But I doubt it. It has to have a
>>> certain surface-to-volume ratio and controlled primary air to burn
>>> cleanly.  The total surface burning at any one time sets the firepower.  If
>>> you break each piece of fuel in half, it will increase the gasification
>>> (devolatilisation) rate.  A certain primary air flow is required for each
>>> surface area burn, and a separate secondary air flow is needed that relates
>>> to that gasification rate. You should aim for an oxygen concentration of
>>> 10% in the exhaust.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> New Dawn Engineering Inc.
>>>
>>> P.O. Box 3
>>>
>>> Alberta Beach, Alberta
>>>
>>> Canada T0E 0A0
>>>
>>> www.newdawnengineering.com<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newdawnengineering.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1f709124a0ef47c37b9908daf75d7666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638094278045184817%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3Ew4BJujqJe6Gt8nEOmxdPMRiK0TQiAknInGenHHgfU%3D&reserved=0
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Research & Design Office
>>>
>>> 5011 Crestview Drive
>>>
>>> Val Quentin , Alberta
>>>
>>> Canada, T0E 0A0
>>>
>>> +1-519-886-7772
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mobile
>>>
>>> Canada +1-519-729-3442 + WhatsApp + WeChat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email: crispinpigott at outlook.com<mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>>>
>>> crispin at newdawnengineering.com<mailto:crispin at newdawnengineering.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
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>>> >
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>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
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>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstoves.bioenergylists.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1f709124a0ef47c37b9908daf75d7666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638094278045184817%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Ah4K%2BFesDoUIDj5%2FU0bNw8PIQc0kJuBnC7rhxYaSKsc%3D&reserved=0
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>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 01:27:02 +0000
>>> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispinpigott at outlook.com>
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove
>>>         - Failed Test
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <
>>> MW4P223MB05621A7839860FAB75B90F4FB1C19 at MW4P223MB0562.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
>>> >
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Well done Kevin.
>>> Thanks Richard.
>>>
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of K
>>> McLean
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2023 18:14
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>> Failed Test
>>>
>>> Hi Stanley,
>>>
>>> You inspired me.  I have colleagues in Uganda, Malawi and Kenya knee and
>>> elbow deep in dung testing your idea.  Great results so far.  They all find
>>> it very easy to soak dung and wring out the water with a woven plast 100 kg
>>> grain bags (ubiquitous in Africa).  The solution is very brown and the
>>> washed dung is much lighter in color.  And when filtered through biochar,
>>> the brown water comes out clear.  Two of them have young plants to test the
>>> brown liquid and charged biochar on.  We are waiting on the patties to dry
>>> to test as cooking fuel.  This is exciting.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20230116/f2d8556f/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:53:40 -0500
>>> From: Kevin McLean <kevin at sun24.org>
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove
>>>         - Failed Test
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CALxcr-uQarMWL-JcDi9CiCZUo2OpjcHa+Tu5ij4-U6kZw=
>>> WSmA at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Again, I request help finding someone to test washing dung somewhere in
>>> Asia where cooking with dung is common.  This isn't common where my
>>> African
>>> colleagues are so I don't think they are the best testers.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:27 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> crispinpigott at outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Well done Kevin.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks Richard.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Crispin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > *From:* Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> *On Behalf
>>> Of *K
>>> > McLean
>>> > *Sent:* Sunday, January 15, 2023 18:14
>>> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> > *Subject:* [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>> > Failed Test
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Stanley,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You inspired me.  I have colleagues in Uganda, Malawi and Kenya knee
>>> and
>>> > elbow deep in dung testing your idea.  Great results so far.  They all
>>> find
>>> > it very easy to soak dung and wring out the water with a woven plast
>>> 100 kg
>>> > grain bags (ubiquitous in Africa).  The solution is very brown and the
>>> > washed dung is much lighter in color.  And when filtered through
>>> biochar,
>>> > the brown water comes out clear.  Two of them have young plants to
>>> test the
>>> > brown liquid and charged biochar on.  We are waiting on the patties to
>>> dry
>>> > to test as cooking fuel.  This is exciting.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kevin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Stoves mailing list
>>> >
>>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> > stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> >
>>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> >
>>> >
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> >
>>> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web
>>> site:
>>> > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20230115/36e3ffe4/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 19:26:10 -0800
>>> From: <tmiles at trmiles.com>
>>> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
>>>         <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove
>>>         - Failed Test
>>> Message-ID: <008201d9295a$48056990$d8103cb0$@trmiles.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Instead of burning nutrients and losing them to the atmosphere, make
>>> biochar from lower nutrient straws and corn stover and combine the biochar
>>> one part biochar with two parts manure. Use is at establishment and as top
>>> dressing. That?s a proven (Warm Heart Worldwide) combination. Let the
>>> biochar be the slow-release agent for the nutrients in the manure. That way
>>> the carbon and nutrients will cycle through the soil, promote carbon
>>> sequestration through photosynthesis and benefit both the farmer and the
>>> environment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> On Behalf Of
>>> Kevin McLean
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2023 5:54 PM
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>> Failed Test
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, I request help finding someone to test washing dung somewhere in
>>> Asia where cooking with dung is common.  This isn't common where my African
>>> colleagues are so I don't think they are the best testers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:27 PM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <
>>> crispinpigott at outlook.com <mailto:crispinpigott at outlook.com> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Well done Kevin.
>>>
>>> Thanks Richard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Crispin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Stoves <stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:
>>> stoves-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> > On Behalf Of K McLean
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2023 18:14
>>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> >
>>> Subject: [Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Dung Rocket Stove -
>>> Failed Test
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Stanley,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You inspired me.  I have colleagues in Uganda, Malawi and Kenya knee and
>>> elbow deep in dung testing your idea.  Great results so far.  They all find
>>> it very easy to soak dung and wring out the water with a woven plast 100 kg
>>> grain bags (ubiquitous in Africa).  The solution is very brown and the
>>> washed dung is much lighter in color.  And when filtered through biochar,
>>> the brown water comes out clear.  Two of them have young plants to test the
>>> brown liquid and charged biochar on.  We are waiting on the patties to dry
>>> to test as cooking fuel.  This is exciting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves,  News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
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>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 149, Issue 10
>>> ***************************************
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
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[Stoves] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 149, Issue 10

[Stoves] SPAM Re: SPAM Re: SPAM Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 149, Issue 10