<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>List (cc A.D.) Dr. Karve has a wonderful background in the topics of this list. I urge all to visit his web site and pay attention to what ARTI has done and learned <br> http://www.arti-india.org/<br> But I have some disagreements with A.D, on charcoal - which I explore below. We should hear more often from A.D<br><br><br>A.D:. please see few inserted comments and questions below.<span></span><br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Anand Karve" <adkarve@gmail.com><br>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:21:34 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] MUST CHARCOAL BE A CAUSE FOR CONCERN?<br><br><div>Dear Stovers,</div>
<div>I once again remind everybody that it is possible to make charcoal from leaf litter and agricultural waste by using a top-lit downdraft kiln. <br> <strong>[RWL1: A.D. : Do you briquette or pelletize the "raw" leaf litter now? I would think it very hard to operate a TLUD without doing so (to get correct air flow</strong>).. <span style="font-weight: bold;"> Or is the char coming from some (unmentioned) retort?</span>. <span style="font-weight: bold;"> For this "TLUD" approach - are you utilizing the pyrolysis gases - or are you describing here something for in-field use only? . You (ARTI) also have been marketing a char-making stove. Should that not be a better economic opportunity for the leaf litter in the average Indian household?</span><br><br>This char must be briquetted before it can be used as fuel in a stove or a furnace.<br style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-weight: bold;"> [RWL2: I concur with this statement. But I believe that a superior use for the char is to place it in the ground. Knowing that your daughter Dr. Priya is active in Biochar-India, is she having success with coupling household char production and its application in soils? Any indication of how much PES (Payment for Environmental Service) would be required for Indian households to switch to most use of the char for soil and climate benefits - and have your charcoal-making TLUD stove design, rather than charcoal briquettes, provide the cooking function?</span><br><br> We are currently testing a locally made patented machine, in which light biomass can be charred with simultaneous condensation of the volatiles. <br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL3: For me, this is new information from ARTI. I do not find anything on this technology at your (above) website. I have only previously seen mention of tar production in larger, non-stove applications. Should your (?, new?) approach be possible with household stoves? Is ARTI the patent holder? If this is not, and cannot be a household stove technology, I hope you will describe this over on the Biochar-policy site. I say policy, because in general, we have been seeing biofuels as having little connection with Biochar. If you have something that can provide a significant amount of tar (no matter how difficult to work with), I think this could be a very important policy (as well as technology) development</span>.<br style="font-weight: bold;"><br>The condensed volatiles represent mainly tar, but if the tar can be sold at the present market price of tar, the char becomes a by product. <br> <span style="font-weight: bold;">[RWL4: I hope we can use the term "co-product" - as I think the char (as Biochar for soil placement) might still be the more important product (being carbon negative as opposed to carbon neutral. What are the relative amounts of carbon in the tar, the char, and the exhaust gases? I look forward to hearing more about this (potentially) exciting (stove?) development.<br> <br> Good to hear from you again.<br><br>Ron<br></span><br>
Yours</div>
<div>A.D.Karve<br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2010/10/12 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com" target="_blank">Carefreeland@aol.com</a>></span><br>
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<div>In a message dated 10/11/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="mailto:carneirodemiranda@gmail.com" target="_blank">carneirodemiranda@gmail.com</a> writes:</div>
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<div>DD: Dan Dimiduk comments </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid blue; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><font style="background-color: transparent;" color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">Stovers:firs<br>I found the following quote on a FAO publication<br>
(<a href="http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/y4450e/y4450e10.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/y4450e/y4450e10.htm</a>), and I<br>wonder if this is a correct statement responding to the question :<br><br>"Must charcoal be a cause for concern?<br>
<br>The shift from fuelwood to charcoal, even if it lasts only a few<br>decades, could have major ecological consequences if it is not kept<br>under control. However, since charcoal stoves are more efficient than<br>wood stoves, the ratio of primary energy to usable energy is almost<br>
the same as with fuelwood. Thus with adequate supervision, management<br>and support, the shift does not need to disrupt present levels of<br>resource use."<br><br>What do you think? Can at the end, with actual stoves and charcoaling<br>
efficiencies, be the wood consumption the same?<br><br>Rogerio<br><br></font></blockquote>
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<div>DD If one produces the charcoal in a charcoal making stove than the fuel can be used twice to produce heat. </div>
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<div> Dan Dimiduk </div></font></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br>President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br><br>*Please change my email address in your records to: <a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a> *<br>
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