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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear AD</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Your point about the difference between the dungs
from different animals is a very important one; some may be readily processed
for use as a superior fuel, while others may present difficulties.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Your point about the "manure tea" being an
imbalanced fertilizer is also important. However, there is a large body of very
successful experience showing that manure teas are beneficial. At the very
least, such manure teas will provide at least some fertilizer effect, and the
need to buy fertilizers will be reduced.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>As mentioned elsewhere, I have heard somewhere that
elderly Indian Women who have tended dung stoves seem to have a very high
incidence of blindness, compared to women tending "non dung" stoves. Have you
seen anything that would support or negate this belief? Have you seen any health
reports relating to emissions from dung stoves that identify illness conditions
that could have been caused by dioxin presence?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>(See: <A
href="http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/153/11/1031.abstract">http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/153/11/1031.abstract</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A
href="http://oem.bmj.com/content/55/2/126.abstract">http://oem.bmj.com/content/55/2/126.abstract</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><A
href="http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/3/331.abstract">http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/3/331.abstract</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kevin</FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=adkarve@gmail.com href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">Anand Karve</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 07, 2010 3:58
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the
dung pile</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear stovers,</DIV>
<DIV>dung from herbivores is of two kinds. The ruminants (bovine cattle, water
buffalos) chew cud and therefore the dung consists of very fine particles.
Filtering them out from a watery suspension is a bit problematic. I think that
a filter press might serve the purpose better. The dung of non-ruminants,
e.g. horses, donkeys, elephants (elephants belong to the category of
domesticated animals in India) contains longer fibres and it is easy to clean
it by washing and straining it through cloth. Allowing the dung tea to flow
into the field is O.K., but it may not have all the
minerals that plants need. After all, when animals eat the plants, their
bodies extract not only the digestible organic carbon, but also all
the minerals that the animal needs. <BR>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Kevin <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net">kchisholm@ca.inter.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
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<DIV lang=EN-CA link="blue" bgcolor="white" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear Crispin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> The basic concept I
propose is as follows:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">1: Slurry the dung with
water</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">2: Filter the water and any
solubles and press the remaining dung cake.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">3: Shape and dry the
remaining dung cake</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">1: Slurry the
dung:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Mix the dung with water, to
an "adequate" degree of dilution, such that most of the solubles will be
dissolve in the wash water. If water is readily available, and if there is a
large need for irrigation water for agriculture, then single stage washing
can probably be used. If water is scarce, and if the scale of operation is
small, it might be better to do a "two stage wash", </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">2: Filtering</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Separation of the water from
the slurry can be done in a number of ways. The first stage of water and
solubles separation is probably best done by simple decantation. Floating
material can be skimmed off the top, and relatively clear liquid can then be
drained off. However, it should be filtered through cloth, to ensure that a
clear liquid is produced, if the manure tea is to be used in a "fertigation
system" involving relatively small distribution nozzles that may be prone to
plugging. The remaining bottom material will still be very wet, and is
probably best dewatered using a filter press system, or filter bags.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">3: Shaping the washed
dung.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Depending on the desired end
use, the moist washed dung can then be shaped to the desired final shape,
and then dried. Obviously, many shapes are possible:</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">* Briquettes</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">* Pellets</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">* Sheets</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">* Etc.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The washed dung will tend to
be high in lignin, and relatively low in cellulose, in that the animal would
have digested much of the original cellulose in the feed. Depending on the
degree of washing and the characteristics of the washed dung, it may, or may
not have sufficient binders to hold the washed dung together in the desired
shape. Experimental work would be necessary to determine if added binders
would be required, and quantities required. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Following are my comments on
the replies received to date....</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=crispinpigott@gmail.com href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 06, 2010 1:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Drawing down
the dung pile</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Dear Doctor
Dung</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">The offer is welcome.
Perhaps the answer is to briquette it then, using the process to wash it.
Leach, I can see, standing in a perforated container.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"># I would suggest that teh
washing must be done before briquetting. Frank (see below) suggests one
good looking way to wash teh dung.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Water is often a
simultaneous constraint but there will be places where dung and water are
available, which means a market.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"># The process would be of
greatest advantage in connection with a farming operation, where the
leached solubles can be productively used for both watering and
fertilizing of crops. If tehre is not such a farming use for the washed
solubles, then there could be a significant disposal problem.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Remember that in this
region the stoves will all have a chimney because space heating is
desperately required. Leakage will be a more important consideration than
emissions (though obviously I favour reducing emissions as
well).</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"># This would certainly be
helpful for the occupants inside teh house, but if a lot of dung is being
burned, and if the location is prone to inversions, where teh smoke "hangs
low", then there could be a community pollution problem.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "frank" <<A href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com"
target=_blank>frank@compostlab.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 2:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the dung pile</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Stovers,<BR><BR>I have washed a lot of dung and
compost. We like to have it clean : ) <BR>When doing weed seed testing we
wash out all the salts and soluble <BR>organics that, if remained, can
make the mix go anaerobic. We wash until <BR>the electrical conductivity
is less than 1 mmhos/cm. Then place the mud <BR>on a bed of sand to let
drain and air both above and below. Then add <BR>seeds to one corner to
make sure if there were weed seeds they have the <BR>conditions to
grow.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># It is the soluble salts
and organics that are teh most valuable agricultural nutrients. I am
guessing that teh soluble organics would have a tendancy to hold water and
slow the natural drying of dung. Removing them from teh remaining fiber
should allow easier drying. Washing to give a conductivity of less than 1
mmhos/cm would certainly be necessary in a repeatable test, but such
repeatable results may not be required when the end product is intended
for fuel.</FONT><BR><BR>The washing is done by the following: Place dung
in a five gallon <BR>bucket., fill with water and mix. Prepare a smaller
plastic bucket by <BR>cutting out the bottom , duct tape a fine mesh
screen over the bottom. <BR>With up-N-down motion move the smaller bucked
down through the muddy <BR>water. The up-N-down keeps the screen clean.
The water that goes into <BR>the small bucket is removed by a smaller
bucket until as much of the <BR>water as possible is removed. Then repeat
the process until the water is <BR>clear or the EC is below one
mmhos/cm.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># This sounds like a very
good basic process.Cheap and simple.</FONT><BR><BR></P>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: <<A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>>; "Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott" <<A href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"
target=_blank>crispinpigott@gmail.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: <<A href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net"
target=_blank>wastemin1@verizon.net</A>>; "Stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 6:26 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the dung pile</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>> Dear Crispin, Kevin, Frank and all,<BR>>
<BR>> I have read the later responses, and I like the "washing", but
only if <BR>> it is clearly shown that a type of dung (each type
to be considered <BR>> separately) does emit "bad stuff" if not
washed. Or wash it if <BR>> nutient value for plants is
shown to make it worthwhile.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># I don't have specific
references to investigations showing that "dung fuel is hazardous", but I
do know that combustion of organic materials containing chl;orides will
produce dioxins. I have seen somewhere that there is a high incidence of
blindness among elderly Indian Women who have tended dung fires. Manure
tea is well known for its advantages to agriculture.</FONT><BR>>
<BR>> Otherwise, the extra work (and water that might not be
plentiful) <BR>> could make dung fuel to be too much trouble to
be well utilized widely.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># Good point. There must be
clear and palpable benefits from teh extra effort required to wash the
dung. Such benefits could include:</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>1: Better burning
fuel</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>2: valuable fertilizer
benefit</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>3: Cleaner and more
acceptable fuel, less liable to harbour insects and pests, easier to
handle, etc.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>4: Health benefit</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>5: Higher calorific value
per pound or kg of fuel, due to higher lignin content.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>6:
Others?</FONT> <BR>> <BR>> Washed or not, I like dung fuel,
have used it a little in India, and <BR>> would like to be part
of the team.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># It seems a shame to burn
the fertilizer components of manure.</FONT><BR>> <BR>> In case you
couldn't guess, my interest is in using dung fuel in TLUDs <BR>>
(of various designs). Because TLUDs need "chunky dry biomass",
I <BR>> will work on having appropriate sizes. Here are
some initial thoughts:<BR>> <BR>> 1. Llama dung is the right
size, as is the size from sheep and some <BR>> other
animals. "Correct size" dung should not be washed (unless
shown <BR>> to be with undesirable emissions. And that
refers to the emissions <BR>> from TLUDs that have great
abilities for nearly eliminating CO and PM. <BR>> But does
the other "bad stuff" get through the TLUD fire? Not yet
<BR>> studied, as far as I know.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># A major objection to
Municipal Solid Waste Incinerators comes from tehir production of dioxins.
This is well documented. Dioxins can be removed from such gas streams, but
a special "dioxin capture system" is required. If TLUD's burn a fuel
containing chlorides, tehy will definitely produce dioxins, and if teh
TLUD's do not have a dioxin capture system, they will indeed be releasing
dioxins.</FONT><BR>> <BR>> 2. Llamas have the nice habit of
pooping in just a few locations. <BR>> Easy to collect
it. And it is already in use widely in the high Andes <BR>>
mountains area. And llamas as "luxury animals" or pets or for
fine <BR>> hair fibers are now found in the Affluent societies,
so there is <BR>> moderate access to the dung for experimental
purposes.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># Certainly, this behaviour
pattern can be used to great advantage. However, to eliminate the dioxin
concern, teh well shaped llama and sheep poo would have to be washed, and
in tgeh process, this initial shape advanyage would be
lost.</FONT><BR>> <BR>> 3. For TLUDs. in India we made dung
tablets. Could work also with <BR>> washed dung, maybe even
better if washed. And it can be mixed with <BR>> sawdust or
rice husks or other small-particle biomass that could even <BR>>
be wet/green because the tablets need to be dried. The dung
(or <BR>> mixture) is spread out on a firm flat surface (board,
cement, asphalt, <BR>> whatever) about 1 to 3 cm thick.
While wet, it is "scored" or <BR>> imprinted with the edge of a
piece of metal (like a license plate) or <BR>> wood form.
The imprints are parallel and about 3 to 6 cm apart, and <BR>>
then again imprinted perpendicular to the first lines. When the
dung <BR>> is dry, the tablets hang together in pieces with 4 to
8 tablets <BR>> together. Can be turned with a spatula (a
large one) for drying on <BR>> the bottom. When fully
dried, they are placed into bags or boxes. <BR>> the user
finishes breaking them into the individual tablets when <BR>>
placing the fuel into the TLUD (or other stove.).</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># As mentioned initially,
teh washing process may remove natural binder substances, and replacement
binders may be required. </FONT><BR>> <BR>> So, let's have an
outline of a plan of actions. Do it on the Stoves <BR>>
Listserv in case we can attract a few more participants.<BR>> <BR>>
Paul "Dr. TLUD"<BR>> Proud to be working with "Captain Dung" or
what was Kevin's name?</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Aheeem... "Dr. Dung." ;-)
This is in addition to my other titles of "Dr Poo", where I fixed a sewage
treatment plant, and "Dr. Slime" where I showed a friend how to eliminate
slime from her fish pond.</FONT><BR>> <BR></P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: <<A href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com"
target=_blank>ajheggie@gmail.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 6:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the dung pile</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>> On Monday 06 December 2010 17:22:14 Kevin
wrote:<BR>> <BR>>><BR>>> Years and years ago, I started a
thread about using dung fuels and<BR>>> interest in it was very
conspicuous by its absence.<BR>> <BR>> The my first swirl stove
which I demonstrated to Ronal when he was here in <BR>> 2002 was
fabricated in order to burn dung, I had a snappy name for <BR>> it ;-).
Horse dung is a problem here because the small fields used <BR>> for
"horseyculture" become horse sick from overgrazing and stabled horses
<BR>> produce dunged bedding which the owners are not in a position to
deal <BR>> with. Often because they are bedded on woodflakes the stable
owners burn <BR>> the heap in a smouldering mass with a characteristic
sickly sweet smell. <BR>> One of the reasons I looked at the problem
was because heavy stocking led <BR>> to parasitic worm infestations,
some of the anthelmic treatments also <BR>> killed earth worms. So some
owners would even collect the dung from the <BR>>
fields.<BR>> <BR># Reduction of such disease and parasite problems
could be another benefit to clooecting dung, and washing it for fuel.
However, this might concentrate teh problem. On teh other hand, if the
pathogens "stayed with the washed dung", then they would end up being
disposed of by burning <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> From what I can
<BR>>> understand, dung fuels are about the worst possible fuel, "as
is",<BR>>> because of moisture and chlorides. Moisture makes for
difficult<BR>>> burning, <BR>> <BR>> Yes often over the 80 odd
% that means the energy needed to volatilise the <BR>> moisture exceeds
the heat available in the fuel.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># If the dung is sun dried
before being burned, teh problem will be significantly
lessened</FONT><BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> and chlorides make dioxins.
<BR>> <BR>> I agree dioxins must have chlorine but I thought the
route was via the <BR>> break down of an organic chloride rather than
the dissociation of an <BR>> mineral chloride.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># No. Dioxins are formed at
the "tail end of the combustion process", when the liberated chlorides,
from either organic or inorganic sources, recombine with products of
incomplete production.</FONT><BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> I advocated
washing the dung, to extract the solubles, and then using<BR>>> the
water extract as a liquid fertilizer. Then dry the residue, for
use<BR>>> as a fuel. It should then be a superior fuel to wood, in
that it would<BR>>> have a higher percentage of lignin, which has a
higher heating value<BR>>> per pound than cellulostic
biomass.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Even better if the dung has been
through an anaerobic process first, then <BR>> all the volatile solids
are gone, the soluble minerals are in the "tea" <BR>> but how to
separate the solid from the tea, drying is no good as this <BR>> would
leave the minerals in the dried sludge. A farmer friend of mine <BR>>
with an anaerobic digester for his dairy herd has a separator but I have
<BR>> no idea how it works, the output still looks pretty wet.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># Anaerobic digestion will,
of course, yield methane as a fuel. The discharge from such a digester has
all teh mineral nutrients, and all the lignin from the animal feed.
However, it is a problem operating a thermophyllic or mesophyllic digester
in cold climate situations. Frank's method (above) or some variant, could
seperate out the liquid from teh anaerobic sludge, for direct field
application.</FONT><BR>>><BR>>> Leaching the solubles from the
"raw dung" should remove the chlorides,<BR>>> and should virtually
eliminate the creation of dioxins, while at the<BR>>> same time,
produce an excellent fertilizer solution, containing Ca, P,<BR>>> K,
and organics beneficial to plant growth.... hormones, proteins,
and<BR>>> nitrogen compounds.<BR>> <BR>> Yes this is what I
would hope for.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Yes, it does work, as
evidenced by teh success of those using "manure tea."</FONT></P><FONT
color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">
<P class=MsoNormal><BR> </P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "frank" <<A href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com"
target=_blank>frank@compostlab.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: <<A href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net"
target=_blank>wastemin1@verizon.net</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 7:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the dung pile</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>> Paul and all,<BR>> <BR>> When washing dung
most disappears in the wash water. So you are left <BR>> with a
fraction of what you started with and a lot of anaerobic solution <BR>>
that will need aeration to stable before a lot can be applied.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># Since manure is applied
directly to soil without an aerobic treatment, why couldn't the manure tea
be directly applied without aeration?</FONT><BR>> <BR>> The minerals
in dung (not washed) will convert to carbonate (CaCO3, <BR>> NaCO3
etc) form so there will be more liming of the soil if the salts
<BR>> are not washed out (I think this is what happens). This not
necessarily <BR>> a bad thing. If heated higher it may go to
oxides. The oxides are more <BR>> of a problem because there is
no buffering to keep the pH from going too <BR>> high when applied in
high amounts.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2># I would think that the
main soluble minerals in dung would be sodium and potassium chlorides.
There may be a danger in very dry areas of sodium buildup in the
soils.</FONT><BR>> <BR>> The more minerals may cause more deposit in
the stove as a crust. Has <BR>> this been seen in our small
stoves? I have ashed a lot of organic <BR>> biomass material at 550 deg
C and found a very small fraction of samples <BR>> form more than an
ash that is easily removed from the container.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I don't know enough about
teh mineral constituents of dungs. Burning tests using teh washed dung
would quickly show if ash was a concern.</FONT></P><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=adkarve@gmail.com href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Anand Karve</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 06, 2010
11:32 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Drawing down
the dung pile</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Crispin,</DIV>
<DIV>dung cakes are regularly used as fuel even in India. In areas
where the rainfall is scanty, and there are no trees, dung is used
as the main cooking fuel. In the high Himalaya, above the tree
line, yak dung is the only fuel available to the locals. The ash content
of dung is normally very high. In the case of animals eating mainly
grass, the ash would consist mainly of silica. I have heard of
a of filter press, which can remove the water from the
dung along with the dissolved minerals. This would leave a
product with a higher calorific value. It can be briquetted
and sold as a standard fuel.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial># While the ash content might
be high, that would only be a concern if it caused slagging. Washing teh
dung would remove teh soluble minerals, which usually act as fluxes,
lowering the ash melting temperature. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Yours</DIV>
<DIV>A.D.Karve<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rstanley@legacyfound.org href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"
target=_blank>Richard Stanley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 07, 2010
12:21 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Drawing
down the dung pile</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>AD, Crispin, Frank, Kevin and all others
concerned with dung briquettes,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>While in Arusha Tanzania recently, I discovered that one of the
lead briquette trainers in Kenya, Francis Kavita, has been teaching
the Masaai how to make co dung briquettes for the past several months.
Your insights, Kevin and frank about carcinogens/ chloride
blindness etc are intersting and I have duely passed them on to
Francis. </DIV>
<DIV>As to dilution of nasty compounds the normal wet low pressure
briquetting process uses water--- but rarely is anything wasted in the
process. The water expelled for the cylinder on compression, is
recycled as well. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial># OK! Such recycling of teh
"wash water" or "manure tea" would give a tea of higher concentration,
and this could be advantageous in areas where water is
scarce.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>However the practice of washing away unwanted elements is common
to briquetters as it is to conventional washing of seeds, beans
cassava and other plant material in traditional food
preparation. In briquetting, certain carcinogenic and foul
smelling glues in certain types of cartonboard are diluted nad washed
off this way. There is no real reason that the same technique could be
applied for preparing "clean cow dung" as well.</DIV>
<DIV> Will revert back to the group with what Francis says about
all this..when he next finds a nearby internet cafe with
electricity or at least petrol for their generator. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial># Yes, it would be helpful
to have his feedback.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks again though for the insights.</DIV>
<DIV>Richard Stanley</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best wishes,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Kevin Chisholm, aka "Dr.
Dung."</FONT><BR>> <BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US> <A
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Kevin<BR><B>Sent:</B> 07 December 2010 01:22<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Drawing down the
dung pile</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear Crispin</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Years and years ago, I
started a thread about using dung fuels and interest in it was very
conspicuous by its absence. From what I can understand, dung fuels are
about the worst possible fuel, "as is", because of moisture and chlorides.
Moisture makes for difficult burning, and chlorides make dioxins. Also,
the very people who are so desperate as to need to burn dung for fuels are
usually the same people who are equivalently desperate for fertilizer. I
understand also that blindness is very common with Indian Women who have
been using dung fuels.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I advocated washing the
dung, to extract the solubles, and then using the water extract as a
liquid fertilizer. Then dry the residue, for use as a fuel. It should then
be a superior fuel to wood, in that it would have a higher percentage of
lignin, which has a higher heating value per pound than cellulostic
biomass.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Leaching the solubles
from the "raw dung" should remove the chlorides, and should virtually
eliminate the creation of dioxins, while at the same time, produce an
excellent fertilizer solution, containing Ca, P, K, and organics
beneficial to plant growth.... hormones, proteins, and nitrogen
compounds.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'd be glad to work with
you, in developing a "dung washing system.". I think it could help with
both fuel and fertilizer needs</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best wishes,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kevin Chisholm, aka
"Doctor Dung." :-)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', 'serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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<HR>
<P></P>
<P align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked
by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/"
target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database:
426/3300 - Release Date: 12/06/10</P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>***<BR>Dr. A.D. Karve<BR>President, Appropriate Rural
Technology Institute (ARTI)<BR><BR>*Please change my email address in your
records to: <A href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com">adkarve@gmail.com</A>
*<BR><BR><BR><BR>
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<HR>
<P></P>
<P class=avgcert align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus
Database: 426/3301 - Release Date: 12/06/10</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>