<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Erich:<br><br> Thanks for the input. I have a hunch that a clear-cut forest has so much more underground biomass that one can go above the 1/3 number that might be appropriate for an annual crop like corn. But I have no proof of that hunch.<br><br> But I also guess that one should perhaps only rarely clear-cut. Rather we should strive for multi-species and multi-age - and mostly strive for an optimum combination of standing biomass and annual growth (might be when annual growth starts dropping off). Letting any forest go un-managed would soon give very little annual new sequestration - which can't be the optimum when valuing a forest as a climate-related topic.<br><br>Ron<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Erich Knight" <erichjknight@gmail.com><br>To: biochar-production@yahoogroups.com<br>Cc: biochar-soils@yahoogroups.com, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>, biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>, "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>, "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com>, "John Nissen" <jn@cloudworld.co.uk>, "Christoph Steiner" <christoph.steiner@biochar.org>, "biochar-policy" <biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com><br>Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:41:12 AM<br>Subject: Re: [biochar-production] Re: Capturing carbon in the timber industry (now from soils perspective)<br><br>
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<p> Ron said;<br><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 255);">e) I guess (can't yet prove) that a portion (maybe half?)</span><br><br>Dr. Brown & crew at ISU showed, at least in corn stover, that 1/3 can be removed for char while sustaining the soil biota.<br>
</p><div class="gmail_quote"><br>Erich<br><br><br>On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 1:13 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
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<p></p><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Tom, Kevin, Crispin, John Nissen and four lists (having added two):<br>
<br> 1. I tend to think (can't yet prove) that John Nissen was hinting at the right track with his opening comment in this thread about a lot of left over material he saw at clear-cut sites in New Zealand: Biochar production. The advantages of course are more displacement of fossil fuels, improvement (postulated) of the soil, and (guaranteed) removal of CO2 from the atmosphere - with people ready to pay for all three benefits.<br>
<br> 2. Next, Kevin questioned the second benefit saying (below): saying leaving is <span style="font-size: 10pt;">"probably"</span> and <span style="font-size: 10pt;">"seems to be"</span> best.. His are comments related only to the middle (soils) benefit. I submit the belief that at best the term should be "possible" - not "probable or "seems". The reasons for questioning Kenin's premise are these<br>
a) we need also to replace fossil fuels<br> b) we need also to remove CO2<br> c) there is a huge mass of roots and microbe/fungus in the soil under the fallen branches and bark - to supply plenty of nutrients as they rot and decay. I have seen no evidence for a recently a clear-cut forest that leaving as-is is preferable to return as Biochar.<br>
d) a good bit of the branch/bark/litter nutrient value can be returned to the same spot through (very long-lived) Biochar, with moisture-retaining benefits that may be more critical than the minerals and "dying microbe/fungus food" (dying because the above ground biomass is no longer supplying enough nutrients.<br>
e) I guess (can't yet prove) that a portion (maybe half?) of the produced char would be better used to revegetate a different piece of barren and unproductive land - thinking of an optimum from the perspective of more than that of the single plot that John saw. For example, any char removed in year one can be thought of as borrowed - and similar char from the benefitted land can be returned in some other future out year.<br>
f) we aren't ever going to be able to scrape clean all the debris from a clear-cut. Maybe trying to optimize the cost of the human labor part of the clean up (taking bigger pieces only) is the right optimization? That could (?) still leave a lot of debris and nutrients.<br>
<br> 3. I also guess that the right optimization for removal of clear-cut debris depends a lot on the type of soil under consideration, what form of re-forestation is being planned and probably a few other factors like slope, rainfall, type of tree, proximity of other natural forest, proximity of people, etc.<br>
<br> 4. I think the right group to be talking of this is the Biochar-soil group. I have added Biochar-policy as a group that may also have given this some thought or seen a pertinent citation.<br><br> 5. Christoph Steiner has a piece of his web site devoted to photos of fallen logs (and similar) that he would like to see turned to Biochar. Not quite the same issue, but I would tend to trust Christoph on this topic. Christoph has spent a lot of time around Terra Preta soils - and it would seem that they did a lot of converting of cleared-forest biomass to char - with pretty darn good results (many centuries later).<br>
<br> 6. Crispin shortly ago also had a question after Tom's message below on where nutrients reside - and I look forward to that discussion. I am not sure that the answer matters a lot if a good part of the Biochar is returned (reasons given above). That is, I wonder how much of the nutrients can be returned in the Biochar, how accessible when in Biochar form, and what portion obtained in growth of the tree reside in the (decaying) roots, and how difficult is it for microbes/fungi to replenish from the soil?<br>
<br>Other thoughts for John?<br><br>Ron<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Tom Miles" <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>><br>To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
Cc: "Biochar-production" <<a href="mailto:Biochar-production@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">Biochar-production@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:11:12 PM<br>Subject: [biochar-production] RE: [Stoves] [biochar] Capturing carbon in the timber industry<br>
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<p></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We have burned plantation residues in industrial boilers in New Zealand. In order to make a clean fuel the nutrient laden bark, limbs and branches are pretty well stripped and left in the soil. I think that amounts to about 20% of the total biomass. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tom</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-top: 1pt solid rgb(181, 196, 223);"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 18, 2010 8:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Biochar-production; Discussion biomass<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] [biochar] Capturing carbon in the timber industry</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dear John</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Leaving the tops, limbs, and stump on site after harvesting is probably a good thing, especially if the slash is driven over by the harvesting machinery. Crushing it down helps it to return organic matter to the soil, and minimize the fire hazard if it is allowed to dry without contact with the ground.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Something like 90% of the nutrients in a tree are in the branches and leaves or needles, and it is a big mistake to remove them from the site. It can lead to rapid nutrient depletion. Removing the stumps for their biomass loosens the ground excessively, and can aggravate possible erosion problems. </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">"Natural" stands, in contrast to plantations, invariably have a range of tree species, some of which have commercial value, and some of which don't. It makes sense to harvest the "unmerchantable stems" for fuel or charcoaling purposes. However, leaving the tops, limbs, leaves/needles and stumps seems to be a good step toward sustainable forest management.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Best wishes,</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Kevin Chisholm</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><blockquote style="border-left: 1.5pt solid black;"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">----- Original Message ----- </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:jn@cloudworld.co.uk" title="jn@cloudworld.co.uk" target="_blank">John Nissen</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Cc:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">Ron Larson</a> ; <a href="mailto:Biochar-production@yahoogroups.com" title="Biochar-production@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">Biochar-production</a> ; <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion biomass</a> ; <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" title="rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">Ron Larson</a> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:21 PM</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> [biochar] Capturing carbon in the timber industry</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><p><br>Hi all,<br><br>I've just had a month's holiday in New Zealand, where forestry is big <br>business, and was horrified by the way they apparently left wood debris <br>
on the ground after taking the timber away. They also left stumps in <br>the ground to rot away. Has any thought been given into capturing the <br>carbon left after the timber is removed? It must be a major source of <br>
CO2 and methane.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>John</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: white;"></span></p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><hr align="center" width="100%" noshade="1">
</div><p>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3323 - Release Date: 12/18/10</p></div></div></blockquote>
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