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Very interesting conversation. I had also been looking into
Jatropha for a couple of years ever since I first heard of it being
"not competing with food"**, and it was in fact one of the first
things that attracted me to the [stoves] list after first learning
about and studying biochar and then learning about the work that
Paul was doing with TLUD's...<br>
<br>
If you look it up on Wikipedia you will find this line:<br>
<blockquote>"<b>Toxicity</b><br>
Much like other members of the family Euphorbiaceae, Jatropha
plants contain several toxic compounds, including lectin, saponin,
carcinogenic phorbol, and a trypsin inhibitor. The seeds of this
genus are also a source of the highly poisonous toxalbumin
curcin.[19] Despite this, <b>the seeds are occasionally eaten
after roasting</b>, which reduces some of the toxicity."<br>
</blockquote>
Perhaps this is a reference to folks like "the enterprising woman an
Moshi, Tanzania" who sell (or use) it "as the cure for
constipation"...<br>
Other names: "bellyache bush", "buddha belly plant"...<br>
<br>
**Regarding the deliberate planting of Jatropha intended
specifically for extracting oil for fuel, this experiment has
already been ongoing over extensive areas in India for the past
couple of years.<br>
The hope was that because it could be grown "in dry marginal
non-agricultural lands, thereby allowing villagers and farmers to
leverage non-farm land for income generation".<br>
Apparently "The Government of India had identified 400,000 square
kilometres (98 million acres) of land where Jatropha could be grown,
hoping it will replace 20% of India's diesel consumption by 2011."<br>
I think there were a lot of broken expectations since the plants did
not produce particularly well -- or at least not as well as they had
hoped (all plants still need nutrients, water, and some care or else
they tend to grow rather slowly or will yield very little seed).<br>
Although, it does seem that Jatropha oil has been used in India
for several decades as biodiesel in "remote rural and forest
communities": <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_in_India#cite_note-Jatropha_cultivation:_gov_aims_and_stats-3">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_in_India#cite_note-Jatropha_cultivation:_gov_aims_and_stats-3</a><br>
<br>
Here is an interesting story in the <b>Ghanian</b> news:<br>
<a
href="http://www.ghanabusinessnews.com/2009/05/23/update-any-lessons-for-ghana-in-india%E2%80%99s-jatropha-failure/">http://www.ghanabusinessnews.com/2009/05/23/update-any-lessons-for-ghana-in-india%E2%80%99s-jatropha-failure/</a><br>
May 11, 2009: 'Jatropha seeds yield little hope for India’s oil
dream.’ (The National, a newspaper published in Abu Dhabi)<br>
<br>
"..the hardy shrub with oil-rich seeds ... were then emerging as one
of the most promising alternatives to crude oil."<br>
“Jatropha can survive in the most arid wastelands”, the story went.
And so vast barren swathes of India could be put to productive use.
It is inedible so it would not cause a backlash by competing with
food crops...<br>
But.. “There is no yield,” ... “The literature said that with dry
land, after four years’ growth, you can get a yield of 1kg per
plant. For us, it is hardly <b>200g per plant</b>.”<br>
<blockquote>The consensus of the team of experts after evaluating
India’s jatropa projects from 22 agribusiness colleges across the
country was that, indeed, jatropha would grow on wasteland, but <i><b>would
give no appreciable yield.</b></i><br>
“This is not a wasteland crop. It needs fertiliser, water and good
management. Yes, it grows on wasteland, but it doesn’t give you
any yield,”<br>
</blockquote>
None of the projects cited in The National story ...were successful.<br>
<br>
The story goes on to say that "the persistent argument that jatropha
could grow on unproductive agriculture land should be looked at
again. This argument also challenges the assertion that investors
are not a threat to smallholder farmers, whose productive
agriculture land stands to be annexed by powerful multinationals for
the cultivation of biofuel crops."<br>
<br>
Thus, the planting of Jatropha could potentially compete with food
crops -- by competing for the <b>good agricultural land</b> that
will result in <b>economically significant yield</b>.<br>
<br>
So, perhaps this is where <b>Biochar [stoves] can have some benefit</b>,
especially if <b>Jatropha pressed 'seedcake' </b>[where the oil
has already been extracted]<b> can be turned into Biochar</b> using
TLUD (gasifier) technologies...<br>
Example: <a href="http://www.locr.com/photo-ghana-ghana-13723822">http://www.locr.com/photo-ghana-ghana-13723822</a><br>
<blockquote>"<big><big><big><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;"><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(102, 102,
102); font-family: 'Trebuchet
MS',Verdana,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12px;
text-align: left;">About 10 Jatropha seedlings were
planted on a<b> former site of charcoal making</b>. The
effect is quite impressive: Growth after approx. 6
months is about 1/3 more than surrounding plants.</span></span></big></big></big>"<br>
- This shows a photo taken in the South Tongu District of Ghana,
in the Greater Accra Region.<br>
</blockquote>
P.S. In order to increase the productivity of these "marginal"
lands, jatropha could probably also be "intercropped" with other
grasses and legumes to increase the overall efficiency of the entire
system, and could probably also be tried in places like Haiti.<br>
<br>
P.P.S. "Pongamia Pinnata" is another possible species to take a
close look at.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"> Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar-consulting.ca">www.biochar-consulting.ca</a>
603-48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
905-707-8754; 647-886-8754 (cell)
Skype: lloyd.helferty
Steering Committee member, Canadian Biochar Initiative
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
Advisory Committee Member, IBI
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario">http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/">http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://grassrootsintelligence.blogspot.com">http://grassrootsintelligence.blogspot.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar.ca">www.biochar.ca</a>
Biochar Offsets Group: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475</a></pre>
<br>
On 2011-01-21 6:55 AM, Otto Formo wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:18713080.4017.1295610933820.JavaMail.adm-moff@moffice2.nsc.no"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Jonathan,
Thanks for the very usefull informatiopn.
Ones should be very carefull to use any kind of biomass as fuel for cooking, due to the fact that some plants or scrubs are toxic and might give some toxic emissions, which needs to be tested in independent labs.
The sooner the better to avoid "cathastroific" results.
"Otto"
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Jonathan Otto [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com">ottojonathan@hotmail.com</a>]
Sent: 2011-01-21 12:38:58 MET
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Friends,
J oil is indeed quite poisonous to humans and other animals, as are the seeds. No animals will eat the leaves of mature shrubs either. Two examples of toxicity:
At the University of Zimbabwe some years grad students had roasted a quantity of J seeds for some experiment, before they left the lab for lunch. Hungry colleagues spotted the roasted nuts and tried a few ... they survived, but experienced violent bowel problems.
.
In Uganda, the cook of some friends of mine ran out of cooking to make dinner. She remembered seeing a gerry can of some oil in the back of the store room, and used that J oil to make a poisonous and strange tasting sauce ... again, no fatalities, but several people reporting wishing themselves dead for some hours.
And then there is the enterprising woman an Moshi, Tanzania, who removes the black coating of J seeds, and markets 2 little white seeds in a tiny plastic bag as the cure for constipation! No one has ever complained that the product failed ... there is a reason one of it's popular names is 'physic nut'.
Seriously, this toxicity is a major concern for any effort to popularize a J oil stove or lamp, as the fuel would be stored around the house in unlabeled containers. Everyone who grows up around J seeds knows their poisonous -- ask any goat in Africa; but the oil presents a different problem. Another reason that I'm glad we have found our way to a TLUD stove that uses whole seed.
Jonathan
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:39:00 +0100
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">formo-o@online.no</a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM">Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">formo-o@online.no</a>
CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Sam,
I guess we all and "everybody" knows that Jatopha oil is not considered as food, but most plant oil on the market of to day are produced as food, as far as I know.
To promote that as fuel for cooking, I find odd and very strange, thats all.
Otto
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Shiroff Samuel Neal (CR) [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM">Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM</a>]
Sent: 2011-01-21 11:28:48 MET
To: Otto Formo [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">formo-o@online.no</a>]
Subject: AW: AW: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Hi Otto,
Honestly I was always told that Jatropha oil caused vomiting therefore making it absolutely impossible to eat no matter how desperate. I therefore was not inclined to try it myself.
The website is <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.plantoilcooker.org">www.plantoilcooker.org</a>
Not sure where you see all of the dots.
Regards,
Sam
********************************************
Samuel N. Shiroff
BSH Bosch und Siemens Hausgeräte GmbH
Carl-Wery-Strasse 34
81739 Munich
Germany
T: +49 89 4590-3039
F: +49 89 4590-3249
E: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:samuel.shiroff@bshg.com">samuel.shiroff@bshg.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.bsh-group.com">www.bsh-group.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.plantoilcooker.org">www.plantoilcooker.org</a>
Protos. The Plant Oil Cooker.
An Initiative of Bosch and Siemens Home Appliances Group.
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Joe Kaeser
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Kurt-Ludwig Gutberlet (Vors.), Johannes Närger, Jean Dufour, Winfried Seitz
Sitz: München; Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRB 75534;
WEEE-Reg.-Nr. DE 57986696
Diese Mitteilung ist ausschließlich für den beabsichtigten Empfänger bestimmt. Sie kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Jede(r) unberechtigte Gebrauch, Kopie, Weitergabe oder Veröffentlichung ist untersagt. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, benachrichtigen Sie uns bitte sofort durch Antwortmail und löschen Sie diese E-Mail nebst etwaigen Anlagen und einschließlich aller angefertigten Kopien von Ihrem System.
This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain trade secrets or other confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, copy, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please inform us immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message including any attachment or copies thereof from your system.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Otto Formo [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">mailto:formo-o@online.no</a>]
Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Januar 2011 11:18
An: Shiroff, Samuel Neal (CR); Otto Formo; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Betreff: SV: AW: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Samuel,
Well, it depends what kind of "desperate" situation you are in...........:)
Your wedside says:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.plantoilcooker.org.........correct">www.plantoilcooker.org.........correct</a>??
Otto
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Shiroff Samuel Neal (CR) [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM">Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM</a>]
Sent: 2011-01-21 11:08:42 MET
To: Otto Formo [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">formo-o@online.no</a>], <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: AW: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
But Otto, you can't eat Jatropha Oil anyway. It is also hard to eat rice and other staples without cooking them first.
********************************************
Samuel N. Shiroff
BSH Bosch und Siemens Hausgeräte GmbH
Carl-Wery-Strasse 34
81739 Munich
Germany
T: +49 89 4590-3039
F: +49 89 4590-3249
E: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:samuel.shiroff@bshg.com">samuel.shiroff@bshg.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.bsh-group.com">www.bsh-group.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.plantoilcooker.org">www.plantoilcooker.org</a>
Protos. The Plant Oil Cooker.
An Initiative of Bosch and Siemens Home Appliances Group.
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Joe Kaeser
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Kurt-Ludwig Gutberlet (Vors.), Johannes Närger, Jean Dufour, Winfried Seitz
Sitz: München; Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRB 75534;
WEEE-Reg.-Nr. DE 57986696
Diese Mitteilung ist ausschließlich für den beabsichtigten Empfänger bestimmt. Sie kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Jede(r) unberechtigte Gebrauch, Kopie, Weitergabe oder Veröffentlichung ist untersagt. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, benachrichtigen Sie uns bitte sofort durch Antwortmail und löschen Sie diese E-Mail nebst etwaigen Anlagen und einschließlich aller angefertigten Kopien von Ihrem System.
This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain trade secrets or other confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, copy, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please inform us immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message including any attachment or copies thereof from your system.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Otto Formo [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no">mailto:formo-o@online.no</a>]
Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Januar 2011 11:07
An: Shiroff, Samuel Neal (CR); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Betreff: SV: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Thanks for the information on Jatropha oil.
Tests has been made in Norway to detect any toxic emmission from the seed cake when burned into cookingstoves.
Since there is some content of N (nitrogen) in the seed cake we are afraied it might give some NOX from the emmision, when used as fuel, tests will tell.
I will give you feedbacks as soon we have the report "in house".
To use plantoil as a cooking fuel, I find as a waste of food, sorry.
Otto
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Shiroff Samuel Neal (CR) [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM">Samuel.Shiroff@BSHG.COM</a>]
Sent: 2011-01-21 10:52:43 MET
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably
Hi,
As many of you know BSH has developed a universal plant oil cookstove. Jatropha oil burns beautifully in it.
Naturally if the focus remains on using the lowest added-value fuel, pressed and filtered plant oil is not the first choice. Nevertheless if you are working on a project and have Jatropha available in significant quantities, I would be very happy to speak with you.
Regards,
Sam
********************************************
Samuel N. Shiroff
BSH Bosch und Siemens Hausgeräte GmbH
Carl-Wery-Strasse 34
81739 Munich
Germany
T: +49 89 4590-3039
F: +49 89 4590-3249
E: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:samuel.shiroff@bshg.com">samuel.shiroff@bshg.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.bsh-group.com">www.bsh-group.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.plantoilcooker.org">www.plantoilcooker.org</a>
Protos. The Plant Oil Cooker.
An Initiative of Bosch and Siemens Home Appliances Group.
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Joe Kaeser
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Kurt-Ludwig Gutberlet (Vors.), Johannes Närger, Jean Dufour, Winfried Seitz
Sitz: München; Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRB 75534;
WEEE-Reg.-Nr. DE 57986696
Diese Mitteilung ist ausschließlich für den beabsichtigten Empfänger bestimmt. Sie kann Betriebs- oder Geschäftsgeheimnisse oder sonstige vertrauliche Informationen enthalten. Jede(r) unberechtigte Gebrauch, Kopie, Weitergabe oder Veröffentlichung ist untersagt. Sollten Sie diese E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, benachrichtigen Sie uns bitte sofort durch Antwortmail und löschen Sie diese E-Mail nebst etwaigen Anlagen und einschließlich aller angefertigten Kopien von Ihrem System.
This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain trade secrets or other confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, copy, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please inform us immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message including any attachment or copies thereof from your system.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] Im Auftrag von <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Gesendet: Freitag, 21. Januar 2011 10:39
An: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Betreff: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 21
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: (no subject) (Boston Nyer)
2. Re: (no subject) (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
3. Re: jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably has
for others, somewhere (Richard Stanley)
4. Re: Testing and Development Laboratories (seb)
5. Re: jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it probably has
for others, somewhere (Jonathan Otto)
6. Re: jatropha does not burn well for us ....but it probably
has for others, somewhere (Paul S. Anderson)
7. Jatropha seeds wanted in USA - can you bring to ETHOS?
(Paul S. Anderson)
8. Re: Testing and Development Laboratories (Otto Formo)
9. Re: jatropha does not burn well for us ....but it probably
has for others, somewhere (Boston Nyer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:39:10 -0700
From: Boston Nyer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bostonnyer@gmail.com"><bostonnyer@gmail.com></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] (no subject)
Message-ID:
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Hi Richard,
I have a related question to this discussion, which I think is interesting.
At CU, we have a Jatropha project that you fielded some questions about a
few months ago. As I'm sure you've heard, Jatropha seedcake does not burn
well, not even close. So, one of our questions now is: what can we do with
this waste stream this is both useful and desirable?
One approach we will test is to carbonize the material and for biochar
briquettes (and a water filter media, etc.). However, I wholeheartedly
agree with your sentiment on biochar briquettes. What is your opinion if
the ag-waste doesn't burn well normally? It still seems a bit contrived,
eh?
I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.
Cheers,
Boston
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Jessica,
Me again, I answered some of these questions to you in a post directly to
you (as that one came directly from you) --a few minutes ago, but
let me add a few comments in reponse to your other questions here...( am
responding in-kind below...)
On Jan 13, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Jessica De Clerck wrote:
Hello,
I am looking for some insight into an array of issues around fuel
briquettes and stoves. I apologize for the long list! I am hoping
Crispin, Dr. TLUD, Richard and others can answer some of these.
*Burning Stalks*
At Stove Camp 2010, we used TLUDs to burn what I recall were maize stalks
in Dr. Anderson?s TLUD. It worked great. However, if maize or sugar cane
stalks can be burned for fuel, why are people not already using this fuel in
three stone fires, or are they? I did not see this in Uganda, but I do
not know about Haiti or elsewhere (where I will be working soon). I
understand that a TLUD or other stoves would do a better job of cleaning up
emissions. -But if a person had access to free fuel in their fields, I would
think they must have a good reason for not burning it, even in an open fire.
Does the fact that it burns quicker than wood deter people because it
requires more effort to feed it constantly into the stove? Or does it not
burn as cleanly as wood?
*Consumption Rate*
Does burning fuel in a TLUD or other stove slow down the rate at which fuel
burns as compared with fuel burned in an open fire? It seems to me it
would because the airflow into the fire would be more controlled in a stove.
*Density*
This also brings up the question of the density of a fuel briquette. What
difference does density make? It seems like we pay a lot of attention to
this, but to me it seems the only difference is that the less dense the
briquette the quicker it will burn. Does a less dense briquette burn hotter
(assuming identical material is used in each briquette)?
It burns quicker but not necessarly hotter. Density is roughly equivalent
to duration assuming same blend and stove . Greaster density also equates
(ex any special starters) to harder start with above assumptions also in
effect. You 'pays yer money and takes yer choice', eh ?
*Briquette Stoves*
I have recently built another RokStove or Holey Rocket ?the side fed rocket
stove for holey briquettes out of clay and sawdust. I made it to the best
specifications I could come up with after considering rocket stove
principles, which was 9? long, 15? tall, and 5? in diameter both in the
feeding area and combustion chamber. Once the stove has been fired, these
dimensions will have shrunk approximately 10%. This will leave a gap
between the stove and my 4?x 2? holey (1? hole) briquettes. I would like
to know if anyone else has had experience in building or using these stoves
so that we may share lessons learned. I already speak with Rok and he?s a
great help.
Rok is the guy for this. He speaks of the need to think a lot about
internal hole size to regulate primary air volume and via my own insight
gained through such Stoves group luminaries such as Crispin here,
temperature...The annular space between the OD of the briquettes and the ID
of the feed tube, is also important.
What other stoves have been tested and are recommended for burning holey
briquettes? I am assuming unless the hole is used as an air channel as in
the RokStove, the hole in the briquette makes no difference (for example if
the briquettes are just put in a pile, or used in a gasifier, because
otherwise a briquette can be broken into pieces if too large).
Rite-e-o on that one, save the one fact that the hole greatly acceletates
--and makes more consistent-- the drying rate. Add too, the effect of the
hole in burning them up right, in the three stove open burn situation. ie.,
ex any stove surround structure.
*Green Charcoal vs. Uncarbonized Briquettes*
Lastly, has anyone done a study of the emissions from making ?green
charcoal?? I see what Amy Smith is doing with the kilns to make charcoal
and the Adam Retort and there seems to be a ton of smoke coming off the
kilns in the process of making the charcoal. I understand it is an
improvement from traditional charcoal making, but I wonder if anyone has
measured the emissions so that I can compare it to other processes.
Shhh. you are unveiling the big secret of the carboniser school here !!!
We don't want to talk about the smoke and energy losses due to
carbonisation..not as they occur in the user site and all conditions they
live with...and after the techies have left and the ted talks and photo op's
wither from our memories.
But why carbonise at all if you have access to the charcoal crumbs and
fines and dust found around every charcoal sellers stall everywhere in the
third world...? Thie waste accounts for between 15 and 20% of the lump
charcoal being brought into the stall and sold through it...You blend that
amount into the briquettes and you double the market for the seller or
proportionately reduce their demand on charcoal while earning them the same
income... but I'm being a bi facetious: It makes sence where there is no
charcoal dust--I guess...
Does anyone have recommendations on what raw materials ought to be burned
in a retort vs. crushed and made into uncarbonized briquettes? I?m
thinking coconut shells and other hard materials that cannot be crushed
easily, but I would appreciate more input.
Thank you all for you time.
Jessica De Clerck
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Boston Nyer
Graduate Student
Department of Civil, Environmental, and Architectural Engineering
University of Colorado at Boulder
(585) 503-3459
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:57:32 -0500
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com"><crispinpigott@gmail.com></a>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] (no subject)
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:071901cbb8e4$a9569870$fc03c950$@gmail.com"><071901cbb8e4$a9569870$fc03c950$@gmail.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Boston
Can you send me some jatropha seed cake?
In fact, where are you? If it is more convenient, you can send it to SeTAR
in Johannesburg and I will deal with it there.
It is hard to believe there is no easy way to burn it.
Thanks
Crispin
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of Boston Nyer
Sent: 20 January 2011 15:39
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Subject: Re: [Stoves] (no subject)
Hi Richard,
I have a related question to this discussion, which I think is interesting.
At CU, we have a Jatropha project that you fielded some questions about a
few months ago. As I'm sure you've heard, Jatropha seedcake does not burn
well, not even close. So, one of our questions now is: what can we do with
this waste stream this is both useful and desirable?
One approach we will test is to carbonize the material and for biochar
briquettes (and a water filter media, etc.). However, I wholeheartedly
agree with your sentiment on biochar briquettes. What is your opinion if
the ag-waste doesn't burn well normally? It still seems a bit contrived,
eh?
I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.
Cheers,
Boston
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:27:15 -0800
From: Richard Stanley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>
To: Boston Nyer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bostonnyer@gmail.com"><bostonnyer@gmail.com></a>
Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it
probably has for others, somewhere
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:B837756A-A940-4153-B144-74915BDED64E@legacyfound.org"><B837756A-A940-4153-B144-74915BDED64E@legacyfound.org></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Boston,
I would toss this question out to the combustion experts on the stoves and biomass lists...here.
I have not tried it out but I know that others must have by now. The idea is to get behind the reason for poor combustion Crispin if I have him correctly implies that there is no poor biomass fuel, only poor stoves...Thats one avenue which the stoves group is particularly good at.
The larger question is: What is missing by this process: What is missing is the 90% of the rest of us in the inquiry. I'm referring to the faceless bystanders you see as CNN rushes to its big story in the so called developing world.
People have been sorting undesired elements out of biomass for as long as we have had fire-- probably before that: Indeed the fire must have excused lots of pre processing. Bio-matter has been is washed/soaked/dried/winnowed/beaten/buried/ and blended for specific culinary or health applications for centuries...
That we notice one kind of biomass which burns badly and therefore has to be especially processed lest it not pass the test of our western intellectual inquiry-- is not necessarily a definitive test of its potential suitability at all. It merely reflects the fact that the "we" are probably in need of going out amongst the rest of us to find out, the why, how and the what--- the rest of us have been doing...
It may be that no one has ever successfully burned jatropa...but, personally, I would not bet on it.
If you like coffee, take a read of this example. The Inca's had perfected a simple method of soaking the roasted ground beans in cold water then draining off the liquid after a certain time period (~12 hrs) to separate out the oil and acid from the real coffee "caffeol" element. The oil and acid remained bound to the roasted grounds, while the pure coffee element nicely disburses into the water as a concentrate--for use with then Hot water or cold to make a really good cuppa java! Even the cheap sawdust the discount houses offer as coffee grounds will make a really good cup (Starbucks beware).
The Incas may have evolved this procedure for coffeemaking, more out of necessity than for the inherent pursuit of the perfect cuppa joe, because in the altiplano at least, they lived on- or above- tree line ~9,500 ft where fuelwood consumption for cooking is about 3 X greater than at the more common sea level to say 4000 ft elevations.
The result was however, that the resulting coffee came out with far less oil and acid with greatly reduced chance of the associated stomach and heart burn (which we try to mask with sugar and cream nowadays).
The incas mastered this process several hundred years ago, well before the process was "discovered" by two young scientists from xyz university en el norte, as the story goes, "working in their garage, etc., etc"... You can read about the new cold brew process at ( <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.toddycafe.com">www.toddycafe.com</a> ) but if you ever venture into a coffee shop in Cusco Peru, you may find small cups of concentrated liquid coffee made by the same process. It was well established before I ever set foot in the altiplano of Peru, ten years ago.
Sure it has since been analysed, packaged and widely sold in the states now--we are very good at that part--but in all honesty it began far before we even set eyes upon the notion..
The point of this digression is this: I have little doubt that if you were to venture out into the jatropa-using world (not just the development project world or institutional research world) but the user-on-the-ground world, you will probably discover how somebody somewhere has figured out a way to process it as fuel...
The ideal is to do this and to frame your scientific investigations at the same time: to run the "field" investigation in parallel and collaboratively with the lab analysis. Then you get not only the best of both worlds as information and data sources: You form a link to-- and directly or indirectly- help to empower those who can not only benefit from the results but who can become teachers of others for the future.
Then publish it with all your collaborrants, for the rest of us. It will be a great contribution !
Pressing on,
Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</a>
Ashland Or.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Boston Nyer wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Richard,
I have a related question to this discussion, which I think is interesting.
At CU, we have a Jatropha project that you fielded some questions about a few months ago. As I'm sure you've heard, Jatropha seedcake does not burn well, not even close. So, one of our questions now is: what can we do with this waste stream this is both useful and desirable?
One approach we will test is to carbonize the material and for biochar briquettes (and a water filter media, etc.). However, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment on biochar briquettes. What is your opinion if the ag-waste doesn't burn well normally? It still seems a bit contrived, eh?
I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.
Cheers,
Boston
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Richard Stanley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a> wrote:
Jessica,
Me again, I answered some of these questions to you in a post directly to you (as that one came directly from you) --a few minutes ago, but
let me add a few comments in reponse to your other questions here...( am responding in-kind below...)
On Jan 13, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Jessica De Clerck wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello,
I am looking for some insight into an array of issues around fuel briquettes and stoves. I apologize for the long list! I am hoping Crispin, Dr. TLUD, Richard and others can answer some of these.
Burning Stalks
At Stove Camp 2010, we used TLUDs to burn what I recall were maize stalks in Dr. Anderson?s TLUD. It worked great. However, if maize or sugar cane stalks can be burned for fuel, why are people not already using this fuel in three stone fires, or are they? I did not see this in Uganda, but I do not know about Haiti or elsewhere (where I will be working soon). I understand that a TLUD or other stoves would do a better job of cleaning up emissions. -But if a person had access to free fuel in their fields, I would think they must have a good reason for not burning it, even in an open fire.
Does the fact that it burns quicker than wood deter people because it requires more effort to feed it constantly into the stove? Or does it not burn as cleanly as wood?
Consumption Rate
Does burning fuel in a TLUD or other stove slow down the rate at which fuel burns as compared with fuel burned in an open fire? It seems to me it would because the airflow into the fire would be more controlled in a stove.
Density
This also brings up the question of the density of a fuel briquette. What difference does density make? It seems like we pay a lot of attention to this, but to me it seems the only difference is that the less dense the briquette the quicker it will burn. Does a less dense briquette burn hotter (assuming identical material is used in each briquette)?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">It burns quicker but not necessarly hotter. Density is roughly equivalent to duration assuming same blend and stove . Greaster density also equates (ex any special starters) to harder start with above assumptions also in effect. You 'pays yer money and takes yer choice', eh ?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Briquette Stoves
I have recently built another RokStove or Holey Rocket ?the side fed rocket stove for holey briquettes out of clay and sawdust. I made it to the best specifications I could come up with after considering rocket stove principles, which was 9? long, 15? tall, and 5? in diameter both in the feeding area and combustion chamber. Once the stove has been fired, these dimensions will have shrunk approximately 10%. This will leave a gap between the stove and my 4?x 2? holey (1? hole) briquettes. I would like to know if anyone else has had experience in building or using these stoves so that we may share lessons learned. I already speak with Rok and he?s a great help.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Rok is the guy for this. He speaks of the need to think a lot about internal hole size to regulate primary air volume and via my own insight gained through such Stoves group luminaries such as Crispin here, temperature...The annular space between the OD of the briquettes and the ID of the feed tube, is also important.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
What other stoves have been tested and are recommended for burning holey briquettes? I am assuming unless the hole is used as an air channel as in the RokStove, the hole in the briquette makes no difference (for example if the briquettes are just put in a pile, or used in a gasifier, because otherwise a briquette can be broken into pieces if too large).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Rite-e-o on that one, save the one fact that the hole greatly acceletates --and makes more consistent-- the drying rate. Add too, the effect of the hole in burning them up right, in the three stove open burn situation. ie., ex any stove surround structure.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Green Charcoal vs. Uncarbonized Briquettes
Lastly, has anyone done a study of the emissions from making ?green charcoal?? I see what Amy Smith is doing with the kilns to make charcoal and the Adam Retort and there seems to be a ton of smoke coming off the kilns in the process of making the charcoal. I understand it is an improvement from traditional charcoal making, but I wonder if anyone has measured the emissions so that I can compare it to other processes.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Shhh. you are unveiling the big secret of the carboniser school here !!! We don't want to talk about the smoke and energy losses due to carbonisation..not as they occur in the user site and all conditions they live with...and after the techies have left and the ted talks and photo op's wither from our memories.
But why carbonise at all if you have access to the charcoal crumbs and fines and dust found around every charcoal sellers stall everywhere in the third world...? Thie waste accounts for between 15 and 20% of the lump charcoal being brought into the stall and sold through it...You blend that amount into the briquettes and you double the market for the seller or proportionately reduce their demand on charcoal while earning them the same income... but I'm being a bi facetious: It makes sence where there is no charcoal dust--I guess...
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Does anyone have recommendations on what raw materials ought to be burned in a retort vs. crushed and made into uncarbonized briquettes? I?m thinking coconut shells and other hard materials that cannot be crushed easily, but I would appreciate more input.
Thank you all for you time.
Jessica De Clerck
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
Stoves mailing list
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
--
Boston Nyer
Graduate Student
Department of Civil, Environmental, and Architectural Engineering
University of Colorado at Boulder
(585) 503-3459
_______________________________________________
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 17:44:40 -0800
From: seb <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sbentson@aprovecho.org"><sbentson@aprovecho.org></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Message-ID: <1295487880.8995.15.camel@seb-laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Tom,
Aprovecho specializes in setting up regional testing centers. The
equipment and personnel your lab needs depends on what you want to do.
Two broad categories are the stove's emissions and fuel performance. You
could also focus on fuel production alone.
Much of what is learned comes from taking the time to carefully carry
out tests and record in an objective way what is observed. Observation
is more important than discovery or success.
Sam
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Tom Miles <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"><tmiles@trmiles.com></a>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:53:26 -0800
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">What would labs need funding support for? Equipment? Personnel?
Conducting tests, design and development? Or all of these?
Tom
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:30:55 -0500
From: Jonathan Otto <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com"><ottojonathan@hotmail.com></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropa does not burn well for us ....but it
probably has for others, somewhere
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:SNT137-w3155F72E2F547F8142AEFDD6F80@phx.gbl"><SNT137-w3155F72E2F547F8142AEFDD6F80@phx.gbl></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Not sure where this fits into the stream of 19 simultaneous subjects, but here goes:
We have a natural draft TLUD developed specifically to combust whole Jatropha seeds -- quite a challenge given the intense energy in those long chain hydrocarbons.
For years we assumed since the main energy was in the seeds' oil, that we needed to remove it first and make a liquid fuel stove. Not true.
Paul Anderson and the other heavies at Biomass Energy Foundation showed us solid fuel vaporization technology at CHAB Camp last August, and 6 months later we're planning on field testing in Tanzania in March, and if all goes well ( a huge caveat to be sure) we'll be in production shortly thereafter.
Very low emissions ... 18% biochar ... Home grown fuel from hedges around fields and farmsteads ... cost less than 50% of the price of charcoal.
Jonathan Otto
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:37:27 -0600
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>, Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">"davidpotto@gmail.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com"><davidpotto@gmail.com></a>, Jonathan Otto <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com"><ottojonathan@hotmail.com></a>
Cc: Discussion, stoves <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropha does not burn well for us ....but it
probably has for others, somewhere
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Dear Boston and all,
I hope you can come to ETHOS meeting next weekend 28-30 Jan in Seattle
and see the Jatropha-seed stove that will be discussed in a
presentation and fired up at the stove demo. It is by "Jet City
Stoveworks" (JCSW) (Seattle is Jet City) and "Pamoja" (NGO working in
Tanzania). I have worked with them on this stove.
The answer is yes, jatropha can be burned cleanly in stoves. but
there are challenges.
You and CU (Colorado Univ.?) and others with Jatropha efforts could
fit in well with additional work on burning jatropha. Pamoja and JCSW
and I (independently or together) would be glad to collaborate.
There could be several ways to handle jatropha as a stove fuel. We
are working (successfully) with one, which is to use the TLUD
combustion technology. In brief, because the top-lit updraft (TLUD)
functions with a decending pyrolysis front that is quite well behaved
and uniform, the flaming pyrolysis (limited oxygen present) provides
heat that vaporizes the jatropha oils, releasing them as gases along
with the pyrolysis gases. The challenge is in the combustion of so
much gas and that type of gas (probably longer-chain hydrocarbons).
To handle the jatropha press cake, pelletizing or briquetting is
probably the best option. And the press cake could be mixed with some
other biomass. Loose presscake alone would block the needed air flow
in the TLUD.
I will leave the details of the Pamoja/JCSW to them to present 9 days
from now. Then we could get into the real details.
Request: Do you (at CU) or anyone else have any supply of natural
(not pressed) jatropha seeds? JCSW and I are looking for some kilos.
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Quoting Richard Stanley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>: -- snipped --
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Boston,
I would toss this question out to the combustion experts on the
stoves and biomass lists...here.
I have not tried it out but I know that others must have by now. The
idea is to get behind the reason for poor combustion Crispin if I
have him correctly implies that there is no poor biomass fuel, only
poor stoves...Thats one avenue which the stoves group is
particularly good at.
It may be that no one has ever successfully burned jatropa...but,
personally, I would not bet on it.
snipped The point of this digression is this: I have little
doubt that if you were to venture out into the jatropa-using world
(not just the development project world or institutional research
world) but the user-on-the-ground world, you will probably discover
how somebody somewhere has figured out a way to process it as fuel...
The ideal is to do this and to frame your scientific investigations
at the same time: to run the "field" investigation in parallel and
collaboratively with the lab analysis. Then you get not only the
best of both worlds as information and data sources: You form a link
to-- and directly or indirectly- help to empower those who can not
only benefit from the results but who can become teachers of others
for the future.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
NOTE by PSA: This is what Pamoja is doing.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Then publish it with all your collaborrants, for the rest of us. It
will be a great contribution !
Pressing on,
Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</a>
Ashland Or.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Boston Nyer wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Richard,
I have a related question to this discussion, which I think is interesting.
At CU, we have a Jatropha project that you fielded some questions
about a few months ago. As I'm sure you've heard, Jatropha
seedcake does not burn well, not even close. So, one of our
questions now is: what can we do with this waste stream this is
both useful and desirable?
One approach we will test is to carbonize the material and for
biochar briquettes (and a water filter media, etc.). However, I
wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment on biochar briquettes.
What is your opinion if the ag-waste doesn't burn well normally?
It still seems a bit contrived, eh?
I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.
Cheers,
Boston
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:00:06 -0600
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>, Jonathan Otto
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ottojonathan@hotmail.com"><ottojonathan@hotmail.com></a>
Cc: ETHOS - Listserve <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu"><ethos@vrac.iastate.edu></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
Subject: [Stoves] Jatropha seeds wanted in USA - can you bring to
ETHOS?
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20110120200006.14573vaecow0c90g@redbirdmail.illinoisstate.edu"><20110120200006.14573vaecow0c90g@redbirdmail.illinoisstate.edu></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
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Stovers and ETHOS persons,
Please contact me or Jonathan Otto if you have some jatropha seeds
already in North America,
OR
If you are coming to ETHOS (or on any trip to America) from a place
where jatropha is growing, and would bring some kilos in your luggage.
We need the seeds for continuing tests of their combustion.
It is legal to bring jatropha seeds into America (clean -- no dirt on
them --) and declare them at customs entry point. Tell the
agricultural inspectors what they are and tell them that they will be
burned. Several of us have done this already without any difficulty,
but we need travellers to bring more seeds.
Once in North America, we can send them by postal service to the
location of the research. Or bring them to ETHOS in Seattle next
week, and we will take care of them from that point onward.
Thanks,
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:07:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Otto Formo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:formo-o@online.no"><formo-o@online.no></a>
To: Frank Shields <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com"><frank@compostlab.com></a>, Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:29547223.998.1295597235656.JavaMail.adm-moff@moffice2.nsc.no"><29547223.998.1295597235656.JavaMail.adm-moff@moffice2.nsc.no></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Frank,
I very much agree with you.
Tests according to protocol should be run by certified and indepemdent labs and you should compare - apples to apples, not like it is to day.
The independent aspect is the most important one, either you produce stoves and let others do the testing or you do the testing as an independent reserach center and let others produce the stoves.
Internal testing should of cource continue, but to be "approved" by the GACC, tests should be done by independent research centres world wide.
That should be the one and only way forward.
Iam about to contact SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Thermal Energy Division in Norway about these issues, right now.
Otto
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Frank Shields [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:frank@compostlab.com">frank@compostlab.com</a>]
Sent: 2011-01-20 19:04:44 MET
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Tom, Crispin and Stovers,
But first we need to get organized. Common testing protocol run by
certified labs -so apples to apples. This takes an organization and
money to put it all together. Otherwise we get nowhere as I see it.
Having a list of all the labs working on stoves is a -great- start.
Getting the labs to send SOP's to a central organization that wants to
take on organization the QC program may be a second. Publish the
collection of SOP's for distribution for comment could be a third. Then
picking ones for all labs to use a fourth. Organizing a protocol to
update, add to, remove test methods a fifth. Something like that.
Otherwise Crispins work helps him develop his stoves and Aprovecho
methods help them better their stoves - but Crispins data cannot be
compared to the data Aprovecho produces and the stoves they both produce
cannot be compared to each other until the same protocol is used and an
independent certified lab does the testing.
Regards
Frank
Tom Miles wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Crispin,
Good examples and great ideas.
Thanks
Tom
*From:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] *On Behalf Of
*Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:01 PM
*To:* 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Dear Tom
We need a bigger testing footprint. Many many stove are promoted
without people have a real clue as to their fuel saving or emissions
profile and the reason is primarily no access to any testing or the
testing was not relevant, not even to mention its accuracy.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The reason for asking is that one way to stimulate stove improvement
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">might be enable producers to access and get support from labs.
I believe the progress made by John Davies, on his own, was in good
measure because real time testing could show him what was and was not
better, sifting through his hunches about how things should work.
Maybe he can support that. It certainly helped me. I was stuck in
?visual land? until I was handed a small combustion analyser.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I have seen situations where a design gets "stuck" without being
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">further developed due to lack of technical support.
That support is the sort of thing you get at the SEET lab: bring it I,
make it perform, we will let you know what we think would make it
better, then demonstrate it to convince you. Emissions reductions by a
factor of 10 are routine with this method.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Organizations involved in production and dissemination often don't
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">have the appropriate resources.
It is a good use of Global Alliance funds because perhaps 100 new
products are needed.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">What would labs need funding support for? Equipment? Personnel?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Conducting tests, design and development? Or all of these?
All those and post-grads. I have been trying to get 5 physics students
into the SEET lab for more than a year with no success. No one will
look ahead 5 years to the time when we need a new coterie of people
skilled at testing and familiar with the issues of standard setting
and certification (implying legislation and inspection).
Design and Development has to be backed up by access to real time
emissions and thermal efficiency testing. The task-based approach
often used till now hides too many thing and can waste a great deal of
effort.
Take a look at the attached charts. There is only one small difference
between these two tests (same stove) something detected in a real time
examination of the emissions.
Regards
Crispin
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 02:37:47 -0700
From: Boston Nyer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bostonnyer@gmail.com"><bostonnyer@gmail.com></a>
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com">"davidpotto@gmail.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidpotto@gmail.com"><davidpotto@gmail.com></a>, Kristen Matsumura
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kristen.matsumura@gmail.com"><kristen.matsumura@gmail.com></a>, Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] jatropha does not burn well for us ....but it
probably has for others, somewhere
Message-ID:
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Dr. Anderson,
I know that the University of Florida - Lee County Extension Services -
Agriculture and Natural Resources has plenty of Jatropha seeds. They
offered to send us some a few months back. You can inquire with Fitzroy
Beckford (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fbeckford@leegov.com">fbeckford@leegov.com</a>) or Martha Avila (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:MAvila@leegov.com">MAvila@leegov.com</a>).
I'm excited to hear more about your TLUD that runs on Jatropha seeds.
Unfortunately, I'm in Bangladesh and won't be able to attend ETHOS.
However, Kristen Matsumura (cc-ed) is also working on the Jatropha research
at CU and will be there.
I look forward to hearing more about it.
Cheers,
Boston
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Paul S. Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Boston and all,
I hope you can come to ETHOS meeting next weekend 28-30 Jan in Seattle and
see the Jatropha-seed stove that will be discussed in a presentation and
fired up at the stove demo. It is by "Jet City Stoveworks" (JCSW) (Seattle
is Jet City) and "Pamoja" (NGO working in Tanzania). I have worked with
them on this stove.
The answer is yes, jatropha can be burned cleanly in stoves. but there are
challenges.
You and CU (Colorado Univ.?) and others with Jatropha efforts could fit in
well with additional work on burning jatropha. Pamoja and JCSW and I
(independently or together) would be glad to collaborate.
There could be several ways to handle jatropha as a stove fuel. We are
working (successfully) with one, which is to use the TLUD combustion
technology. In brief, because the top-lit updraft (TLUD) functions with a
decending pyrolysis front that is quite well behaved and uniform, the
flaming pyrolysis (limited oxygen present) provides heat that vaporizes the
jatropha oils, releasing them as gases along with the pyrolysis gases. The
challenge is in the combustion of so much gas and that type of gas (probably
longer-chain hydrocarbons).
To handle the jatropha press cake, pelletizing or briquetting is probably
the best option. And the press cake could be mixed with some other biomass.
Loose presscake alone would block the needed air flow in the TLUD.
I will leave the details of the Pamoja/JCSW to them to present 9 days from
now. Then we could get into the real details.
Request: Do you (at CU) or anyone else have any supply of natural (not
pressed) jatropha seeds? JCSW and I are looking for some kilos.
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor
Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Quoting Richard Stanley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstanley@legacyfound.org"><rstanley@legacyfound.org></a>: -- snipped --
Boston,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I would toss this question out to the combustion experts on the stoves and
biomass lists...here.
I have not tried it out but I know that others must have by now. The idea
is to get behind the reason for poor combustion Crispin if I have him
correctly implies that there is no poor biomass fuel, only poor
stoves...Thats one avenue which the stoves group is particularly good at.
It may be that no one has ever successfully burned jatropa...but,
personally, I would not bet on it.
snipped The point of this digression is this: I have little doubt that
if you were to venture out into the jatropa-using world (not just the
development project world or institutional research world) but the
user-on-the-ground world, you will probably discover how somebody somewhere
has figured out a way to process it as fuel...
The ideal is to do this and to frame your scientific investigations at the
same time: to run the "field" investigation in parallel and collaboratively
with the lab analysis. Then you get not only the best of both worlds as
information and data sources: You form a link to-- and directly or
indirectly- help to empower those who can not only benefit from the results
but who can become teachers of others for the future.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
NOTE by PSA: This is what Pamoja is doing.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Then publish it with all your collaborrants, for the rest of us. It will
be a great contribution !
Pressing on,
Richard Stanley
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.legacyfound.org">www.legacyfound.org</a>
Ashland Or.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Boston Nyer wrote:
Hi Richard,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
I have a related question to this discussion, which I think is
interesting.
At CU, we have a Jatropha project that you fielded some questions about a
few months ago. As I'm sure you've heard, Jatropha seedcake does not burn
well, not even close. So, one of our questions now is: what can we do with
this waste stream this is both useful and desirable?
One approach we will test is to carbonize the material and for biochar
briquettes (and a water filter media, etc.). However, I wholeheartedly
agree with your sentiment on biochar briquettes. What is your opinion if
the ag-waste doesn't burn well normally? It still seems a bit contrived,
eh?
I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective.
Cheers,
Boston
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Boston Nyer
Graduate Student
Department of Civil, Environmental, and Architectural Engineering
University of Colorado at Boulder
(585) 503-3459
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address Stoves mailing list to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
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_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
Stoves mailing list
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
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