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<p class=MsoPlainText>Richard,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Thank you, I think I mentioned it in one of my first
posts (back in november 2010), but I am a 26-year-old French, and I moved to
Benin 1 year ago to start a stove production and distribution company. We just
started to sell a few institutional rocket stoves, and are planning to produce
also domestic charcoal stoves. I have a social sciences background, but I have
been interested by climate change and renewable energies for years.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Crispin,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i><o:p> </o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>I never said there is no climate change,<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>OK, I thought you said you didn't believe in global warming.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>I am not sure about a chart from Phil.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I was meaning this chart <a
href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/05/global-temperature-still-headed-down-uah-negative-territory/#more-37362">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/05/global-temperature-still-headed-down-uah-negative-territory/#more-37362</a>.
It is in fact from Anthony Watts, my mistake.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>everytime there is a hot sport (like Moscow 2010) we
are told ?it is evidence of warming? even though it was freezing cold next door
in Kazakhstan at the<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>same time.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Yes, the man in the street will believe or not in global
warming only with his own experience. "This hot summer all over Europe is
the proof of global warming" or "it is snowing in December in South
of France and they want to make me believe in global warming.". I heard
this latter on French radio from well-known journalists. They were reasoning
like the next-door neighbour. I had thrills in my back spine. Good old common
sense shouldn't never used to make one's point on a complex scientific question.
Nowadays everyone is a climatologist.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>So these localised events need to be compiled by climate
scientists, who deal with considerable amounts of data. Only their work can
confirm climate is globally warmer. They also say extreme climate events occur
more often. I'm sure the men in the street will at least agree with this
statement. Not only in Paris, but in Cotonou. Many Beninese say they saw
climate changing a lot.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>it has been warming for 400 years<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>More info on that here :<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><a
href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_climatique_m%C3%A9di%C3%A9val">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_climatique_m%C3%A9di%C3%A9val</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>It seems that climate started to be warmer in the 17th
century, but warming rose very fast starting from the industrial ages. In fact acceleration
seems to be starting already in the beginning of the 19th century, in the
beginning of industrial revolution.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>"Temperature of March 2011 is warmer than
temperature of 1979. And is seems March 2011 is a "down" of the
curve, it is probably there will be a "up" soon." That is an
assumption based on what, exactly?<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Hum, actually based on nothing but my opinion … I
should have say: "it is possible". But time only will tell, it
doesn't prove anything.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>That is his opinion and he has very little to support
it, though lots of supporters, in my view. There are many others around with
different opinions <o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>On the contrary, he has hundreds (thousands?) of studies
at his disposal. The vast majority of the scientific community agreed on
climate change caused by anthropic actions. And in different disciplines.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Two different studies found out 97% of the scientists
interviewed agreed on climate change caused by anthropic action:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><a
href="http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/06/scientists-overwhelmingly-believe-in-man-made-climate-change/1">http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/06/scientists-overwhelmingly-believe-in-man-made-climate-change/1</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><a
href="http://stats.org/stories/2008/global_warming_survey_apr23_08.html">http://stats.org/stories/2008/global_warming_survey_apr23_08.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Here is the long list of the scientific organisations who
recognized it:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>And I am not even sure it is comprehensive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>In France it is simple, it is Courtillot and Allègre VS
the rest of the world, well the rest of the French scientific community,
especially the Académie des Sciences. Allègre especially is intellectually
dishonest, in his last book, dozens of errors have been found by the press and
other scientists. He lied on some facts, and put a chart from Courtillot he
knew had been proven wrong.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>So could the majority be wrong? Like in every conspiracy
theory, when all politicians, journalists, scientists agree on one thing, it is
likely to be a very big lie made to manipulate the public and make a lot of
money.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>That is basically what Claude Allègre was saying on every
TV set, based on nothing, of course. And of course, he was calling for people's
common sense. He even said he was like Copernic. I am pretty sure Copernic had
a slightly more solid argumentation :)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>And the scientific community just said: "anthropic
action is very likely to cause global warming". They said "very
likely"! I mean there is room for debate. We are almost sure, enough to
want to limitate greenhouse gases emissions. If we are not, consider it a precaution
principle, just like GMOs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>It cost nothing to limitate CO2 emissions, in fact, at
the same time we act upon other problems.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Energy-efficient buildings:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>- mitigate climate change / make households save money /
decrease peak loads on national grids<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Clean vehicles<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>- mitigate climate change / make households save money /
decrease dependancy towards rarer oil / increase air quality<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Stoves<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>- mitigate climate change / make households save money /
increase conditions of living and life expectancy / protect biodiversity by
limiting wood cutting<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>What do you mean by ?polluting? ? Biofuels, especially
wood and charcoal,are CO2 neutral. Forests have to be managed of course, but I
think you are referring to CO2 as ?pollution?<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Sorry, I meant "climate-unfriendly" because of
its supposedly high energy losses during transformation from wood to charcoal,
so more wood is cut to cook a unit of food, meaning less CO2 absorption by
trees, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><i>Exactly. And the places to discuss them are elsewhere<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Actually, talking about climate change on a stove
community discussion list makes sense, since <i>There is a movement within the stoves
community to make statements about the ?contribution of cooking stoves to
climate change.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I am part of this movement, not because I want to apply
for subsidies, I want something commercially sustainable, but because that's
why I'm in it. What I found interesting in stoves was that, correct me if I'm
wrong, it is, like ARC said, one of the cheapest/fastest/easiest way to mitigate
climate change. Save trees, that was and is still my goal. Of course it is more
than that, I want my action to have an impact both in terms of health and economic
empowerment in people's life.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I need to know why I am doing this, because I think global
warming caused by human is real. I would like to be wrong, but unfortunately I
think it is real.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><br>
Xavier<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
Sent: mercredi 6 avril 2011 21:00<br>
To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 7</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
to<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>You can reach the person managing the list at<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Today's Topics:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> 1. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
(Richard Stanley)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> 2. Courier need frorm USA to Uganda soon (Paul S.
Anderson)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> 3. Re: Jamaican cooking (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>----------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Message: 1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 06:56:00 -0700<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>From: Richard Stanley <rstanley@legacyfound.org><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking (Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Message-ID:
<9A1B0ED7-D9A2-4245-926D-E9E5AA890239@legacyfound.org><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Xavier, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I do not know much about you or even much your work but I
have to say that that was a very refreshing and well referenced post you just
entered: It offers much food for thought. Our own take on charcoal use is much
the same as yours; Viz; it is there and will coninue to be used ....but we can
optiise it by utilising the 20+ % waste that winds up on the seller's stall
floors, and generally move to its assimilation into non carbonisd biomass in
more efficient stoves...What the charcoal seller offers is not so much the
charcoal but a network and a markeing skill and a established presence in local
markets, globally. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>It is that network we wish to integrate to, for selling
'increasingly reduced' portions of charcoal in biomass briquette fuel, as we
learn more about how to combust noncarbonised biomass efficiently<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Thanks <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Richard Stanley<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>www.legacyfound.org<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>NW Obamaland<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Message: 2<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 09:02:20 -0500<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>From: "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>To: Karsten Bechtel <karsten@tech.mak.ac.ug>,
Stoves<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>,
"biochar@yahoogroups.com"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <biochar@yahoogroups.com><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Cc: 'Nicholas Salmons' <nsalmons@lifelinefund.org>,
pmkeller@aol.com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Subject: [Stoves] Courier need frorm USA to Uganda soon<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Message-ID:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <20110406090220.10497hgwrdwldlc8@redbirdmail.illinoisstate.edu><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
DelSp="Yes";<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> format="flowed"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>We are seeking a person who will be traveling from the
USA to Uganda <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>in the next two months, preferably very soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>A compact piece of scientific equipment (a PEMS data
processing case <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>about the size of a briefcase) has been repaired at
Aprovecho and <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>needs to be returned to Uganda. There is no importation
issue because <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>the unit has already been inside Uganda for the past two
years.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>If an earlier courier cannot be found, I will take it
with me in <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>mid-June. But they would like to use the unit as soon as
possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>If you know of anyone making a trip to Uganda, please
contact me and <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Aprovecho and Karsten Bechtel so that arrangements can be
made.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email:
psanders@ilstu.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf
(Best ref.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Quoting Karsten Bechtel <karsten@tech.mak.ac.ug>:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Dear Paul, Dear Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Do you know anyone who comes to Uganda in the next
few weeks (or better<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> days) to bring the PEMS (is at Aprovecho Oregon)
back to UG?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Please ask you networks to find a reliable person.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>> KARSTEN BECHTEL<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>Message: 3<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 14:20:32 -0400<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott"
<crispinpigott@gmail.com><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Jamaican cooking (Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Message-ID:
<045e01cbf487$5ccc8260$16658720$@gmail.com><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Dear Xavier<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>Sorry, but I strongly disagree with your statement
Crispin on global<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>warming/climate change/climate disruption.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>No need to be sorry. You are in good company, as am I. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>?.what is the real footprint of charcoal over its
entire lifetime. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I agree also that we cannot eradicate it as simply as
that. It's not likely<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>outlawing the entire sector would benefit local economy,
on the contrary. In<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Benin, many people depend on charcoal supply for their
cooking, or simply<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>because they have a job in the sector. It's not sure
either outlawing this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>activity would suppress it, nor decrease harmful and
warming emissions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>To tack ?warming emissions? on any argument about
charcoal is opportunistic,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>in my view. Charcoal production causes all sorts of problems
and like many<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>industries that cause problems, it provides employment to
a large number of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>people too. It extracts more than $50m per year from
major cities and pumps<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>it into the rural economies.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>True, global warming is a good marketing argument a growing
number of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>businesses in the "green energies" sector
benefit. So do I. Does it mean it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>is not true? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Saying it does not make it true.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>You could reverse the argument: companies of the fossil
fuels sector benefit<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>the idea there's no such thing as climate change.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I never said there is no climate change, and it is
interesting to see the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>topic move rapidly one to the other. It is common
knowlegde that the climate<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>changes ? it is always changing. The debate is whether it
changes because of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>human CO2 emissions, and if so, how much. There is a
movement within the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>stoves community to make statements about the
?contribution of cooking<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>stoves to climate change. From my vantage point, it is
more about finding<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>additional funding for projects that are otherwise
unsustainable. I am not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>convinced you can subsidise sustainable progress.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>On one side or another, the hidden interests cannot
inform us about the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>authenticity of the two theories.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>There are far more than two theories. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Fossil fuel companies (which fund the CRU among many
things) benefit<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>enormously from scares about CO2 and fuel. That benefit
is in the form of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>higher fuel prices, now at record levels in Waterloo
where I am sitting at<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>present.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>In the debate of global warming, we hear so many
(conspiracy)theories that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>it is also easy to go cherry-picking to give credence to
one or another.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Exactly. And the places to discuss them are elsewhere. I
recommend<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>WattsUpWithThat which is very open and invites opinion
from all comers, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Dr Judith Curry?s new discussion site which is not as
broad in focus and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>high level. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>In the Phil Jones graph you sent Crispin, we can see a
global cooling, that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>is correct, but only for the period of March 2010 to
March 2011, so a period<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>of one year. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I am not sure about a chart from Phil. The charts I
referred to were from<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Courtillot. I was of course referring to Phli?s statement
about ?no<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>significant temperature rise since 1995? which was made
some time ago. He<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>uses the term ?significant? in the technically correct
sense there.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>We should be careful not to make Phil Jones say what he
never meant. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Exactly I encourage people to read not only what Phil
says but the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>temperature charts for their region and the world. Phil
said a lot of things<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I don?t agree with, too. He has also lied. That doesn?t
make him wrong on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>everything.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>This article quotes an interview of Phil Jones on BBC
published saturday<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>13th of February 2010. Phil Jones, the director of the
Climate Research Unit<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>of the West Anglia university, clearly states that:
" The global warming of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>(+0.12?C per decade) is the same over three periods
(1860-1880, 1910-1940<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>and 1975-1998), but we notice on the 2002-2009 period a
cooling of 0.12?C<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>per decade. A tendency which is not significative, for
the period is too<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>short".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I am really happy that you include the ?period is too
short? because every<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>time there is a hot sport (like Moscow 2010) we are told
?it is evidence of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>warming? even though it was freezing cold next door in
Kazakhstan at the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>same time. I again encourage people to investigate for
themselves and no<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>take anything at face value. If we took everything on the
basis of yelling,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>we would have banned paraffin long ago. And candles (they
cause a lot of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>fires). And knives.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>So you are right, there is a cooling, it has even been
going on for longer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>than one year, but it doesn't contradict the global
warming that has been<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>occuring for a century and a half (since industrial
ages). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I do agree there has been global warming since 1850.
However you did not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>also point out that it has been warming for 400 years,
not only since 1850.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I feel that is a misrepresentation of the facts. It does
not warm evenly and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>appears to warm and cool in 30 year cycles.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Actually the graph in the link you sent here<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/04/uah-temperature-update-for-march-2011-co<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>oler-still-0-10-deg-c/ confirms it, we can easily see the
tendency. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Agreed. It does show global warming. When did this
warming begin, according<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>to that chart? Are there other charts ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Temperature of March 2011 is warmer than temperature of
1979. And is seems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>March 2011 is a "down" of the curve, it is
probably there will be a "up"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>That is an assumption based on what, exactly? Accoding to
Prof Courtillot,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>who presents a very well reasoned case, it is going to go
down for<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>approximately 30 years. He not, by far, the first person
to have made this<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>prediction. As far as I know his work takes into account
a realistic GW<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>forcing for CO2 though I do not know him as a well known
?modeller?. The<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>best predictions so far are made by Theodor Landscheidt
whose work<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>encouraged me to start concentrating on space heating
stoves.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>In this article, a another climatologist explains that
the pace of global<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>warming slowed down, it was anticipated by the
climatologists community,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>this is what they call "a plateau". Phil Jones
said he was "100% sure"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>global warming was occuring and it was due to men's
actions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>That is his opinion and he has very little to support it,
though lots of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>supporters, in my view. There are many others around with
different<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>opinions, some of which I have read. Some are better than
others. Thereare<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>hundreds who think that the ?human signature? is not only
unproven, but<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>would be undetectable anyway.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Crispin, you are quoting Vincent Courtillot. He is
perhaps a good<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>geophysician, but he is mostly known in France for being
at best very wrong<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>on climate change questions, at worst a liar (he and his
colleague Claude<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>All?gre). His theories have been unanimously destroyed by
the scientific<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>community, especially by the Acad?mie des Sciences:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-politique/france/actu/020895911845.htm?xtor=<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>RSS-2059. Bard and Delaygue have shown that Vincent
Courtillot graphs and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>deductions he was basing his theories upon were full of
mistakes (what he<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>admitted himself later on). More info here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>http://sciences.blogs.liberation.fr/home/2008/02/soleil-et-clima.html.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Before that, there was already an affair where the guy
forgot in his<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>calculations Earth's albedo and the fact is was round ...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Perhaps his charts of historical temperatures in North
America and Europe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>will also be found to be incorrect, and that we are not
largely influenced<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>by Pacific Decadal Oscillation, cosmic ray intensity and
Nino events as is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>presently supposed by some. As he points out, it is the
IPCC models which<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>have failed to incorporate clouds, albedo and cosmic ray
influences well.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Perhaps they also admit to these omissions. I am
impressed by scientists who<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>accept corrections and develop their theories. I hope I
am able to do the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>same. I was once convinced of many things about stoves
which I now know not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>to be true. I have not always been successful at
communicating my stance.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>The proof should be found in the products, of course.
Really good stoves do<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>not come about by accident.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I think we should avoid two misconceptions about stovers
:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>- there are stovers who do stoves only to limit climate
change. It is a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>preoccupation of Westerners living in rich countries,
often motivated by<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>economic interests. They do not care about poor locals
conditions of living.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>They do not make products suitable to this people.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Agreed. Cell phones have been a really big help though.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>- there are stovers who are on the field but living in
their ivory tower.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>They do not see the big picture (global warming). They
are only interested<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>in selling/distributing their stoves to the people, even
if they are based<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>on polluting energies (charcoal).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>What do you mean by ?polluting? ? Biofuels, especially
wood and charcoal,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>are CO2 neutral. Forests have to be managed of course,
but I think you are<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>referring to CO2 as ?pollution? like mercury in fish and
phosphates from<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>farming in rivers. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>You can both make user-friendly stoves, and which play a
role in addressing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>climate change issue. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>We should make user-friendly stoves that improve all
aspects of the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>economic, social, natural, family, cultural and spiritual
environments. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Crispin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>End of Stoves Digest, Vol 8, Issue 7<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
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