<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron and stove list,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry, this will also be my last post on the subject on the
stove list, but I just wanted to be a bit more explicit: I was referring to
large SHS, let’s say from 30-50kW to more than 120kW. I am not including small
SHS, like 7kW PV systems. Solar lanterns, solar cell phone and radio recharge
are SHS after all, and they are very good and handy. There are great products
now (Greenlight Planet, Barefoot, Toughstuff) and people love them. Plus they
are affordable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To be specific, what I do not believe in is the use of big SHS
to a rural electrification purpose. A widespread adoption is difficult. For people
will need to rent them, and the business model would be a fee-for-service
model. I do not believe in such a model with SHS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Here’s the hopefully working link to the document :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZUxju9fX8LKR8n2yikfQ9E-A2OtHzvhgQmysBpiPIc/edit?hl=en_US">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OZUxju9fX8LKR8n2yikfQ9E-A2OtHzvhgQmysBpiPIc/edit?hl=en_US</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I do believe in small SHS for lighting and some stuff, and power
plants for communal and productive use of electricity. Small production of
electricity by stoves, why not? Perhaps stovers would end up with the same
debate as the biochar: stove energy for cooking only or stove energy for
cooking plus electricity?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>At first, we wanted to sell stoves and solar lanterns to rural
areas in Benin, we thought they went great together and would solve most of the
energy problems. Now we want to sell stoves to urban areas, but we only produce
institutional stoves at the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’d be happy to discuss this topic further by email if some people
want to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Xavier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> rongretlarson@comcast.net
[mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 24 juillet 2011 19:15<br>
<b>À :</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; xvr.brandao@gmail.com<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latest
imprecise reporting of facts (rongretlarson@comcast.net)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Xavier
and cc stove list:<br>
<br>
I own a 7 kW (name plate) PV system and have worked
peripherally on what you call SHS systems in Sudan, Ethiopia and
Zimbabwe. I understand very well how easy it is for something to go wrong
- generally not with the panels. But with the right sort of company
giving service, I believe they can work. But I do applaud your
suggested use of PV lanterns - which have become amazingly cheap. Some
are capable of cell phone recharge and radio service as well.<br>
<br>
So I am not surprised that you could assemble a set of quotes on
SHS problems. Unfortunately, I couldn't make anything work at the
google docs site. I look forward to your sending me something directly
and/or telling me what I may be doing incorrectly (I have received from
this site before.).<br>
<br>
PV is too far from our core stove topics to discuss this much
more, but I would like to hear from you on whether you see similar
problems for the emerging rural stoves industry? I just saw a nice
stand-alone teapot which could generate enough electricity to recharge cell
phones. Earlier I have seen several wood stoves that could do the
same. Do you have recommendations for this list along these lines?
(To my knowledge, no omerta here.)<br>
<br>
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=zwchr>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Xavier Brandao" <xvr.brandao@gmail.com><br>
<b>To: </b>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:43:40 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's
latest imprecise reporting of
facts (rongretlarson@comcast.net)<br>
<br>
Dear Ron,<br>
<br>
Yes, I am very happy to share this document to anyone, thanks for your<br>
interest. There were a few references to internal documents of the<br>
foundation, I removed them, the rest is not confidential and can be shared<br>
with everyone.<br>
I send it to you by email, and also post it on Google documents here :<br>
C<br>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nRXa32OgE0uPuyakSPlpPA0xqmU0hnH59Q7WAIof918/edit?pli=1PIc/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1<br>
<br>
This a bit off-topic, but perhaps a few people on this list have worked with<br>
solar in developing countries. The goal of this document was to show there<br>
are many questions about the suitability of the Solar Home Systems, also<br>
called SHS, to developing countries, especially to rural areas and to the<br>
bottom of the pyramid. A SHS is a kit composed of a solar panel + battery +<br>
regulator + plugs + bulbs.<br>
Many hints showed projects with difficulties around the world. In my<br>
opinion, SHS is not an appropriate technology. It is a costly technology,<br>
with technical limitations, made in developed countries and to be shipped to<br>
developing countries, then to remote regions. A technology which satisfies<br>
only certain needs : some light, radio and a small TV. No productive use of<br>
the electricity. SHS need maintenance, trained users and qualified<br>
technicians. I believe in electrification and solar for the third world, but<br>
rather with solar lanterns, or carefully localized solar power plants.<br>
<br>
All the indicators for the foundation projects were red, yet no one would<br>
react or question the technology. Amazing. No one at the board would hear<br>
that something was wrong. I collected info during months, while carefully<br>
trying to start a discussion. The team of business developers tried also,<br>
but no critics were allowed. This was NOT open to discussion. I had a few<br>
words with the board, questioning the unattainable objectives. I sent a long<br>
email to everyone in the foundation, trying to break the omerta and start a<br>
public debate. I was fired without warning sometime after :) Up till now,<br>
the foundation goes on with SHS. It is not going better for them, actually<br>
it is going much worse.<br>
<br>
I am sure the same story happens everyday, and will happen again.<br>
<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<<< Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:10:10 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: rongretlarson@comcast.net<br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to
BioFuelWatyche's latest<br>
imprecise reporting of facts.
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<br>
<1592677650.193756.1311293410736.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.emeryville.ca.mail.co<br>
mcast.net><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
<br>
Xavier, list etal <br>
<br>
1. Thanks for the added insight - with which I mostly agree. The
"mostly"<br>
refers to the word "hidden". BFW is very open about wanting to kill
all<br>
forms of biofuel. Maybe "most" is more accurate - but I haven't seen
a<br>
bio-gas or bio-liquid they liked. They may have approved of indigenous<br>
groups collecting fuel wood for cooking and heating. <br>
<br>
2. As you say - almost (?) every organization has a desire for self<br>
preservation. BFW has no reason to be an exception. The problem as BFW<br>
relates to Biochar is that they apparently see Biochar only as another<br>
biofuel.. Biochar proponents, like most on the Biochar lists generally place<br>
energy (or biofuels) last (if at all) among the three obvious potential<br>
dollar flows.. The stoves list is more divided - but rarely open<br>
hostility/denial towards sequestration or soil benefits, which BFW either<br>
ignores or denies.. Jobs, rural economic development, reduced irrigation and<br>
fertilizer needs, nutrient retention etc - all have to be put down by BFW-<br>
even though they have little place in the world of biofuels. <br>
<br>
3. Our Biochar job is to show that Biochar is inherently different from<br>
biofuels (because so many benefits can be retained at the site of converting<br>
biomass to Biochar) This assumes that the people willing to pay for<br>
sequestration agree that conversion should be done where the biomass is<br>
grown and harvested. We in the developed world need the developing world -<br>
and there are not many (any?) economic arenas where we can say that. <br>
<br>
Ron <br>
<br>
3. I'd like to see your 15 page list of quotes, if you care to. I promise<br>
confidentiality. <br>
<br>
Ron >>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
http://www.bioenergylists.org/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>