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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Roger (Fireside)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It would be helpful if you put your name at the bottom of your texts because people are having trouble remembering who sent it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regarding the science: ignorance is not a virtue. An ability to learn is. There is no problem at all that you are not comfortable with the terms used between guys and gals here who are used to power and efficiency calculations. If you read this list regularly for a couple of years you can learn a great deal that will be directly relevant to your stove and efforts. Apart from technical issues we also discussion funding and program opportunities, and the risks associated with various stove layouts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regarding Mongolia, Ulaanbaatar is the most polluted capital city in the world, and also the coldest. The people there are mostly very poor (about 660,000 out of 1.1 million) and live in informal housing that has to be heated for about 8 months of the year. There are enormous forests in Mongolia that start as the latitude of Ulaanbaatar, but which have disappeared from the immediate vicinity of the city after 600 years of cutting, or are protected. There are wood resources available and it is not even very expensive, however coal is far cheaper and easily available. It is burned in what is essentially a wood stove and the two fuels are substantially dissimilar.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you put diesel into a gasoline engine, it will make a LOT of smoke, not because the diesel in inherently smoky, but because a gas engine in not suited to burning diesel well. It needs a completely different type of hardware. The same applies to coal, and in fact different coals required different types of combustors. We have specialised at the Asian Development Bank, the World Bank and the Stove Emissions and Efficiency Testing Laboratory (SEET Lab) in developing stoves and advising stove producers how to burn wet lignite (a young brown coal) extremely cleanly. I have not yet seen a wood stove that will burn as cleanly though I think it can also be done. It is unlikely that it will be done in the same identical stove, but I am open minded and will try just about anything. That is how we make dramatic improvements – not being pre-decided about what works. The same will apply to you and everyone else. There are many things possible….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you want to try your stove with coal, get the worst, lowest quality coal you can find. It will have a high level of volatiles in it. Bituminous coal is a good start. American coals have high sulphur (S) in it so you can tell how well your stove is doing be measuring the sulphur dioxide (SO2) level and the hydrogen sulphide (H2S) level (both are cheap to measure) and seeing the ratio between them. In almost all cases, a domestic stove will burn the sulphur to one or the other. SO2 is the desired product of combustion. H2S is not. That is what makes coal stoves stink. If you burn the S to SO2 it does not smell of rotten eggs. In fact it does not smell of anything if it is burning well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The filthy air in UB (as we call Ulaanbaatar) is cause by people placing fresh wet coal on top of an existing fire. That is the traditional re-fuelling method. The air in the city peaks at 4200 to 4500 micrograms of PM2.5 per cubic metre in the open air. The WHO standard for outdoor air is 50. The National standard in Mongolia is 25 so clearly there is a problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In the poorest communities 85% of the PM2.5 (particulate matter with a diameter of 2.5 microns) is from coal combustion at a low temperature. You cannot see PM2.5 particles. If you see a smokeless fire, perhaps yours, you cannot tell if it has a high level of PM2.5 or not by looking at it, unless it is really smoky! If you look at a region with a lot of such stoves from a distance in sunlight, it will have a white haze. That is reflected light and you can see it. Of way to tell (without equipment) if you are creating a lot of small particles is to run the stove in your garage with the chimney venting into the room. Run it for a while – perhaps 30 minutes making sure you are not getting sick from the CO or other garbage. Then take a photo of the stove with and without a flash. If there is PM2.5 in the air, which might look perfectly clear to your eyes, it will show up in the flash picture as a slight fog. The non-flash picture will be clearer and not foggy. Of course that tells you nothing about the quantity of smoke, but it is a pretty good test you can do with a camera.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>While it is interesting that your stove can burn a log slowly, I have been trying to say that we need a certain quantity of fuel burned efficiently per hour to get enough heat to keep the house warm.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There is of course a different between temperature and quantity of heat. Think of a large or small cup of water both at the same temperature. The larger cup has more heat in it because it has a larger mass that has been heated to the same temperature.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>5 lbs of wood contains about 2.27 kg of wood. If it has a moisture content of 12% (well air dried) then perhaps the heat content is 17 MegaJoules of heat (because this is an international list we use metric measurements, plus Imperial ones like BUTs are hard to work with). 17 MJ is 16,113 BTU’s. That is a quantity of heat which could be applied to heating a quantity of water or a volume of air in a room.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So your 2.27 kg of wood has 38.59 MJ of heat in it. If you burn it really efficiently (say, 99.95%) you can get 38.57 MJ of heat out of the wood. Burning it fast or slow will make no different to the total heat you get. It only contains that much. If you need 4 kiloWatts (kW) to heat a home (on a constant basis, meaning that much is lost through the wall and windows on a continuous basis) you calculate as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4 kW = 4,000 watts = 4,000 Joules per second. A MegaJoule is 1,000,000 Joules<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4,000/1,000,000 = 0.004 MJ per second<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You have 38.57 MJ available<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>38.57/0.004 = 9,642.5 seconds<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So if you were to burn the wood at exactly the same rate all the time 5 lbs of wood would last for 9,642.5 seconds = 160.7 minutes = 2.68 hours.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That of course assumed that the system efficiency was 100% and zero heat was lost up the chimney which is impossible. If the efficiency is 80%, then the stove will have to burn at a higher rate to deliver 4 kW and the log will only last 2.68 x 0.80 = 2.14 hours. Given that the mass of fuel is 2.27 kg, that is very close to the estimated 1 kg per hour I mentioned yesterday.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you burn the same log over a period of 10 hours, it can only deliver 2.14/10 x 4kW = 0.857 kW or 857 watts (average). While it is interesting that you can burn a log so slowly, it is not enough heat to warm a building when it is cold outside. Most cooking stoves are between 2 kW and 5 kW with most domestic ones in the 2-3.5 kW range.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The temperature at which the stove burns has nothing to do with the rate of heat production. It does however relate directly to the cleanliness of the burn. Low temperature fires usually have high CO and perhaps smoke particles, though not necessarily the latter. You need a high temperature to burn CO because it has a high ignition temperature and is inevitably created when burning any fuel with carbon in it. The environment needed is about 850 C (1560). If you do not burn most of the CO, a great deal of heat is lost because CO is itself a very high energy gas fuel (better than wood!) If you lose a kg of Co during a day, you have lost the equivalent of 1.4 kg of wood as described above so it is a serious business, getting rid of CO and turning it into CO2.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you have charcoal left over after the fire, either because it was deliberately created or just didn’t burn, that has an energy value of about 1.7 kg of wood per kg of char. The discussion your came upon was about whether or not subtracting char deliberately from the cooking or heating operation can be met by increasing the efficiency of the cooking (or heating) or by using something as fuel that was not previously considered fuel such as grass or wasted twigs (it varies from place to place). My point was that there is no free energy – if you take char out of what is currently a wood burning operation, you will either have to get more fuel to replace it (1.7 kg of additional wood fully burned per kg of char taken out), or increase the system efficiency (by how much depends on the char yield but approximately 35%), or find something to burn that is not fuel (which may or may not be available).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I hope this will assist you in evaluating your stove.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin<br><b>Sent:</b> 26 July 2011 21:53<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear Fireside</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Crispin gave you a typical analysis for the coal he used when he designed, built, tested, and taught local Mongolians how to build very efficient coal stoves. Why not start simply by trying to burn local coal in your stove? Perhaps your stove might not work with coal. It would be good to know this before you went to the expense of getting a coal sample shipped in from Mongolia.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Have you tried burning pellets, wood chips, and stickwood in your stove? A stove designed to burn 5 pound extruded fire logs may not work well on these other fuels.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Don't underestimate the importance of Science and Measurements as a vital part of the Art of Stove Design.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Best wishes,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kevin</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0mm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com" title="firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com">Fireside Hearth</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:49 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hello and thanks for responding.<br><br> So lets start with this. I am no where near as educated in the scientific language as this group, no doubt. What I have created is a double burn system which can go for up to 12 hours in one 5 lb log. I see NO SMOKE from our 3"stack once I get to a temperature of over 600 deg. f. Our secondary combustion temps run in excess of 1500 deg. F. creating a smokeless burn for hours, and can be reloaded during use. I do realize that Coal (not a favorite of mine) does burn differently and I would like to test my stove on this fuel so as to have the chance to tweek my unit to burn it cleanly. I am reading and trying to understand all that I can. Sometimes I think that too much science makes things too complex. Maybe being a simple guy without all the math is what helped me do what I did. Either way there is no way of getting around the fact that what this stove does do is to get more heat energy out of the same fuel load, and releasing less into the environment. Both are characteristics necessary for attacking these issues. By the way we watched this work in the puget sound area, why could it not work in Mongolia? <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:35:57 +0000<br>From: <a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>Subject: [Stoves] Coal stoves in Mongolia<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Crispin (cc list)<br><br>1. Changed thread name to reflect the dialog.<br><br> 2. I had great hopes (based on your writings) for a simple Mongolian BLDD. Where does that fit into the general scheme for Mongolia? The BLDD doesn't seem appropriate for most cooking chores - but seemed pretty perfect for heating. (Not thinking about making coke - but there should be that possibility also Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=ecxzwchr></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, July 25, 2011 7:53:14 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Roger</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>P.S. any idea's how I can get a sample of the coal being used in Mongolia? I understand they use 4 metric tones a year by 1,300,000 yurts per year. I think I could cut this down to less than one ton, but need a sample of this stuff.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saving coal is not as straight forward as burning less. The need for heat is absolute, meaning that you have to deliver an average of 4kW minimum into the home. If the system is 80% efficient it means having a 5kW fire going constantly.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The number of yurts (gers, as they are called) is about 100,000 with the number declining slowly as people build more permanent housing. Coal is not used outside Ulaanbaatar domestically, and in fact viewed historically is only a recently used fuel.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am interested in know what you think of as ‘clean’ with your coal burner. We are expressing the emissions in terms of heat delivered into the home so that the figure incorporates the thermal efficiency into the number. For stoves receiving a subsidy to the homeowner, the CO limit is 7 g/MJ delivered and PM2.5 is 70 mg/MJ. Some stoves are below 1 mg/MJ which is extremely clean. One is a crossdraft and the other is a TLUD that can be refuelled under certain circumstances. They are very different to look at.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The coal consumption per urban domestic home is 4,500 kg per year on average, burning about 1 kg per hour in winter. The coal is from the Nalaikh Mine, mostly, and the analysis is 25% moisture, 50% volatiles after drying and 8-12% ash. The sulphur is very low at <0.4%.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It lights easily and has enormous volumes of smoke if placed on a burning fire (which is the main air quality problem in UB). If a TLUD is refuelled hot, it is a nightmare. It is essential that the stove be refuelled for continuous operation. That has led to hopper stoves having the most promise. </span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The qualifying stoves range from $80 to $160 and one imported TLUD made of cast iron with a ceramic liner is $275 or so. The cleanest, cheap stove is a crossdraft burner with a flame tube for the smoke and CO to burn inside the heat exchanger. This layout has been successful in several very different products.</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:33:04 +0200<br>> From: <a href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">rwhongser@web.de</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>; <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br>> <br>> Dear Crispin,<br>> <br>> 2SISTLUDPSXDCPZ-RF<br>> <br>> There, I think we're making progress now.<br>> <br>> Ronald von der AS(BY)EAA<br>> <br>> p.s. Aussenstelle(Bayern)EuropäischeAbkurzungsAmt /*bitte nicht bei der EU anzeigen!*/<br>> <br>> <br>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>> Von: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>> Gesendet: Jul 25, 2011 5:36:45 AM<br>> An: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> Betreff: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br>> <br>> >Thanks for the reminder about names, Andrew. Here's another:<br>> ><br>> >I have been trying to characterise the combustion type for the GIZ 7 series coal stoves in Mongolia and it does not fit easily into standard categories. To make matters worse Prof Lodoysamba has used a true TLUD charge of coal in the combustion chamber to start the stove and it was very successful. That means it is a TLUD-ignited cross-draft stove with a continuously pyrolysing zone at the bottom of a refillable hopper.<br>> ><br>> >That to occupy the nomenclaturists for a while.<br>> ><br>> >Regards<br>> >Crispin<br>> >-----Original Message-----<br>> >From: "Andrew C. Parker" <<a href="mailto:acparker@xmission.com">acparker@xmission.com</a>><br>> >Sender: <a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:23:57<br>> >To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> >Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> > <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecise<br>> > reporting of facts.<br>> ><br>> >This is a discussion list. Some of us discuss. Some of us lurk. Some of<br>> >us know what we are talking about. Some of us wish we knew what we were<br>> >talking about. Sometimes we don't volunteer a distinction. Some of us<br>> >act. Some of us act up -- once in awhile. Sometimes things get out of<br>> >hand, but we get over it -- usually. If you thought the discussion was<br>> >hot on CAGW and CO2 credits, wait until we start in on nomenclature.<br>> >Welcome to the list.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Andrew Parker (Not AJH)<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:34:48 -0600, Fireside Hearth<br>> ><<a href="mailto:firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com">firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >><br>> >> Hello....<br>> >><br>> >> As a new kid on the block I am sorta surprised by the amount of<br>> >> time spent by people who seem to care, on such a point. You all will not<br>> >> agree....probably ever! There, someone said it! Now in the amount of<br>> >> time wasted, what could have been accomplished through<br>> >> action........talk is cheap!<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >_______________________________________________<br>> >Stoves mailing list<br>> ><br>> >to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> ><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> ><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> ><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> ><br>> >_______________________________________________<br>> >Stoves mailing list<br>> ><br>> >to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> ><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> ><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> ><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>> <br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> <br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> <a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> </span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: <a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3789 - Release Date: 07/26/11<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></body></html>