<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Crispin (cc list)<br><br>1. Changed thread name to reflect the dialog.<br><br> 2. I had great hopes (based on your writings) for a simple Mongolian BLDD. Where does that fit into the general scheme for Mongolia? The BLDD doesn't seem appropriate for most cooking chores - but seemed pretty perfect for heating. (Not thinking about making coke - but there should be that possibility also Ron<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, July 25, 2011 7:53:14 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br><br><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear Roger</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">P.S. any idea's how I can get a sample of the coal being used in Mongolia? I understand they use 4 metric tones a year by 1,300,000 yurts per year. I think I could cut this down to less than one ton, but need a sample of this stuff.<br><br></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Saving coal is not as straight forward as burning less. The need for heat is absolute, meaning that you have to deliver an average of 4kW minimum into the home. If the system is 80% efficient it means having a 5kW fire going constantly.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The number of yurts (gers, as they are called) is about 100,000 with the number declining slowly as people build more permanent housing. Coal is not used outside Ulaanbaatar domestically, and in fact viewed historically is only a recently used fuel.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am interested in know what you think of as ‘clean’ with your coal burner. We are expressing the emissions in terms of heat delivered into the home so that the figure incorporates the thermal efficiency into the number. For stoves receiving a subsidy to the homeowner, the CO limit is 7 g/MJ delivered and PM2.5 is 70 mg/MJ. Some stoves are below 1 mg/MJ which is extremely clean. One is a crossdraft and the other is a TLUD that can be refuelled under certain circumstances. They are very different to look at.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The coal consumption per urban domestic home is 4,500 kg per year on average, burning about 1 kg per hour in winter. The coal is from the Nalaikh Mine, mostly, and the analysis is 25% moisture, 50% volatiles after drying and 8-12% ash. The sulphur is very low at <0.4%.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It lights easily and has enormous volumes of smoke if placed on a burning fire (which is the main air quality problem in UB). If a TLUD is refuelled hot, it is a nightmare. It is essential that the stove be refuelled for continuous operation. That has led to hopper stoves having the most promise. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The qualifying stoves range from $80 to $160 and one imported TLUD made of cast iron with a ceramic liner is $275 or so. The cleanest, cheap stove is a crossdraft burner with a flame tube for the smoke and CO to burn inside the heat exchanger. This layout has been successful in several very different products.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:33:04 +0200<br>> From: <a href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de" target="_blank">rwhongser@web.de</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>; <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br>> <br>> Dear Crispin,<br>> <br>> 2SISTLUDPSXDCPZ-RF<br>> <br>> There, I think we're making progress now.<br>> <br>> Ronald von der AS(BY)EAA<br>> <br>> p.s. Aussenstelle(Bayern)EuropäischeAbkurzungsAmt /*bitte nicht bei der EU anzeigen!*/<br>> <br>> <br>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>> Von: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@gmail.com</a>><br>> Gesendet: Jul 25, 2011 5:36:45 AM<br>> An: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> Betreff: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br>> <br>> >Thanks for the reminder about names, Andrew. Here's another:<br>> ><br>> >I have been trying to characterise the combustion type for the GIZ 7 series coal stoves in Mongolia and it does not fit easily into standard categories. To make matters worse Prof Lodoysamba has used a true TLUD charge of coal in the combustion chamber to start the stove and it was very successful. That means it is a TLUD-ignited cross-draft stove with a continuously pyrolysing zone at the bottom of a refillable hopper.<br>> ><br>> >That to occupy the nomenclaturists for a while.<br>> ><br>> >Regards<br>> >Crispin<br>> >-----Original Message-----<br>> >From: "Andrew C. Parker" <<a href="mailto:acparker@xmission.com" target="_blank">acparker@xmission.com</a>><br>> >Sender: <a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> >Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:23:57<br>> >To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> >Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>> > <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecise<br>> > reporting of facts.<br>> ><br>> >This is a discussion list. Some of us discuss. Some of us lurk. Some of<br>> >us know what we are talking about. Some of us wish we knew what we were<br>> >talking about. Sometimes we don't volunteer a distinction. Some of us<br>> >act. Some of us act up -- once in awhile. Sometimes things get out of<br>> >hand, but we get over it -- usually. If you thought the discussion was<br>> >hot on CAGW and CO2 credits, wait until we start in on nomenclature.<br>> >Welcome to the list.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Andrew Parker (Not AJH)<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:34:48 -0600, Fireside Hearth<br>> ><<a href="mailto:firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com" target="_blank">firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >><br>> >> Hello....<br>> >><br>> >> As a new kid on the block I am sorta surprised by the amount of<br>> >> time spent by people who seem to care, on such a point. You all will not<br>> >> agree....probably ever! There, someone said it! Now in the amount of<br>> >> time wasted, what could have been accomplished through<br>> >> action........talk is cheap!<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >_______________________________________________<br>> >Stoves mailing list<br>> ><br>> >to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> ><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> ><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> ><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> ><br>> >_______________________________________________<br>> >Stoves mailing list<br>> ><br>> >to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> ><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> ><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> ><br>> >for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> ><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Stoves mailing list<br>> <br>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> <br>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>> <br>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>> <a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>> </span></p></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://www.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></body></html>