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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Roger,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You will find staged combustion and staged gasification employed in many designs. Providing ideal geometry and air control for good combustion is fundamental to the rocket design which is the basis of the designs at Burn Design Lab, Aprovecho and elsewhere. You will find the TLUD (Top Lit UpDraft) stove designs are a gasifier with secondary gas combustion. The designs gets complicated when you add the needs for efficient heat transfer. So you may have devices with high combustion efficiency (fuel savings) but poor to mediocre heat transfer. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you have mixed both aspects in your design then you should be able to test it using the range of cooking tests (Water Boiling Test, Kitchen Performance Test) and emissions tests that are listed on the PCIA, Stoves and other websites. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The final criteria for developing countries is cost. You can see the cost and other targets on the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves site. http://cleancookstoves.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fireside Hearth<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 28, 2011 12:49 PM<br><b>To:</b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Fire Stump / stump-incuts<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Hi Tom.....and thanks. <br> My wife and I are asking the following question. Why isn't the secondary combustion process be applied in cooking? or another angle why could these appliances do both jobs?<br>Are we needing to assume that costs of making such a unit are too high? If so what could be done to bring this characteristic into the realm of affordable? I realize that we both have different angles on this issue. Mine obviously is centered on reduction of consumption, yours would seem to be centered on higher burn temps to combat pollution. Is a "hybrid" design something to look at? has it already been dismissed? I feel strongly that we have mixed both aspects in order to achieve the performance we have gotten. <br>Roger and Bridget<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From: tmiles@trmiles.com<br>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:36:30 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fire Stump / stump-incuts<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Roger,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We developed the efficiency and emissions protocols for heating appliances that you refer to in Oregon in the late 70s and adopted them in the early 1980s. They were later adopted by the EPA. We did the initial work in collaboration with other countries which adopted similar protocols. The $20,000 fees charged by OMNI and other labs are what we live with. Most stove companies use consultants or their own equipment to get preliminary numbers. The equipment used for improved cooking stoves (like the PEMS - Portable Emissions Monitoring System - available from Aprovecho Labs) are not a substitute for the EPA tests. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Our focus here is for cooking stoves for developing countries not domestic heating appliances. Domestic heating appliances get the higher efficiency at substantial costs, either for fuel preparation (pellets) or for controlling combustion and heat transfer. Here we try to achieve higher efficiency and lower emissions at very low costs but the appliances are for cooking, not heating, and the metrics are different. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jim Jetter of EPA just presented a webinar testing done for cooking stoves, not domestic (US) appliances. See www.pciaonline.org</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>