<html><head></head><body bgcolor='#FFFFFF' style='font-size:12px;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;'>Dear Roger,<br/>I'm quite sorry that you feel insulted, but I'm rather confused as to why-- especially since I did not mean to insult you in any way. I'm also quite sorry to have had any part in a discussion that caused your wife to respond in such stark terms. Please forgive me.<br/><br/>The fact that remains is that if you are not doing a gas analysis of the visible AND invisible products of your stove's production, that you don't know some important things that are happening whether you see effects or not. CO releases a lot of energy when it burns. This leaves more or less harmless by-products. When it doesn't burn it's a deadly poison. By the way, it (Carbon Monoxide) needs an ambient temperature well over 200°f to combust, which may well mean that there are poisonous gases being emitted from your stovepipe during significant periods of your 12 hour reported burn time.<br/><br/>What follows is not meant to be condescending or insulting. It follows however, from conclusions I've made by reading what you've said put together with some concepts that it just doesn't seem you're aware of. There isn't more energy in the piece of compressed extruded log than is there. It's just a clump of chemicals held together by complex, long-stringed molecules. It's a fixed entity. It's in many ways like a gallon of gasoline or a pound of propane. There are only so many molecules in a log or a gallon or a pound. Basically, if you break all the molecules down, there's no more energy to get out of the log or gallon or pound. These also contain fixed amounts of energy that can be extracted by the complexities of burning-type reactions. When you approach the maximum of x joules for the given mass, there just isn't any more heat to be won from the reactions. You have to use more fuel. That's really just about all we've been saying. I hope you would agree with me for instance that a typical wooden match gets very hot. But it doesn't produce a lot of heat. If I need 5kW all the time because the outside air is sucking the warmth out of my house I need to burn more than a couple of kilograms of wood every twelve hours. There's no insult in that statement. It's just a fact.<br/><br/>sincerely,<br/>Ron<br/>w<br/>h<br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left: 5px; padding-left:5px; padding-top:5px;"><hr/><b>Von:</b> "Fireside Hearth" <firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com><br/><b>Gesendet:</b> Jul 28, 2011 7:43:20 AM<br/><b>An:</b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br/><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br/><br/><div class="hmmessage"><div>Dear Ron.....<br/><br/> What I have is 26 years of proven track record without the fancy language, or insults. I have created a stove, maybe by instinct, which works "damn well". I know what "pre" epa stoves did in our area, and what happened when certification came along. I was in the labs at Lopi and Avalon when they met their first certification challenge. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what burns dirty or clean, smoke out put is a great indicator.<br/> The best parameters I can give you would be what we are doing on a daily basis with this stove. If we burn a 5 lb log rated at 8500 btu/lb and a moisture content of approx 8% at a low run we have a burn time of up to 12 hours. During this burn our stove's cook top temps run up to 1150 deg.F. and the internal temps can run up to 1600.deg f. My flue gas temps will stay below 350 deg.f Yes I wish to get this verified and will during my certification process, what I am going on for the majority of my claims would be crude tests done on my own and also in comparison to what other heat sources do in the same environment. For example I have a gas fireplace in my bedroom with a btu and efficiency rating confirmed in an independent lab. My unit produces a full third more heat in the same room, in far less time. Our ability to chat in foreign jargon might be hindering our ability to get our point well understood, but is seems many folks on this site would rather insult than check it out.<br/> If you wish to talk further I can be reached at firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com but I think I have had enough of the sort of intelligence, which seems both rude and blinding, and a waste of my time.<br/><br/><div><hr id="stopSpelling"/>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:20:40 +0200<br/>From: rwhongser@web.de<br/>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br/>Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br/><br/>Dear Roger,<br/>I had at the point of writing not positively identified you as the person behind "Fireside Hearth". Sorry!<br/><br/>The point that you seem to be missing with your "claims" and "belief" is that a 5 lb extruded log cannot provide 5kW of heat for 14hours. It's plain and simple physically impossible. 200° is relative to the ambient temperature. Unless you're on the S. Pole or on a very high mountain momentarily your ambient temp is highly unlikely around -30 --> 45°C. That explains the long burn time. CO is invisible, so your claim "no visible smoke" is relatively meaningless. I don't care if you're advertising, but if you're going to advertise here, you need to do so with meaningful facts. Meaningful facts would be having some sensor-output with concrete numbers(CO, O2, H2O, CO2, etc. in % and some temperatures would be salient). If I seem negative, it's merely because you continue to refuse giving meaningful information and continue to make claims that are relatively meaningless.<br/><br/>That you firmly believe the stoves in Mongolia are pre-EPA technology flies in the face of the data about the stoves in question that Crispin has already provided you.<br/><br/>I wish you well and hope you succeed with your business, but you'll actually find help here if you will answer questions posed by the long-time members of the list who ask you for specifics.<br/><br/>regards,<br/>Ron<br/>w<br/>h<br/><br/><br/><br/><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid blue;margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;padding-top:5px"><hr/><b>Von:</b> "Fireside Hearth" <firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com><br/><b>Gesendet:</b> Jul 27, 2011 2:12:18 AM<br/><b>An:</b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br/><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br/><br/><div class="ecxhmmessage"><div>Not sure who the anonymous friend may pertain to, but this is exactly what my stove already does. In fact last night I loaded a 5 lb extruded log into my stove at 8:30 pm, this morning at 10:30 am I was still getting a bit over 200 deg. F. at the cook top. Our stove does this with no visible smoke from our 3" flue after the first 15 minutes +/-. I guess I came across to some folks wrong, as it looked like a sales pitch....it is not. The technology works and works well. I firmly believe that the stoves used in Mongolia for example probably burn like the old pre EPA stoves here in my home town.......at a whopping 20% leaving 80 percent as unburned fuel going up the flue. It's really simple to stop this problem and I think people make it too complex an issue. This is hampering anything from getting done. To prove my theory I need some of the coal being burned in this region for a test.<br/>Should anyone want to write me on this subject I can be reached at firesidehearthvashon@hotmail.com<br/><br/> Thank you.....Roger and Bridget Lehet<br/><br/><div><hr id="ecxstopSpelling"/>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:18:25 +0100<br/>From: steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk<br/>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br/>Subject: Re: [Stoves] WorldStove replies to BioFuelWatyche's latestimprecisereporting of facts.<br/><br/><br/><br/><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On 26 July 2011 08:02, Ronald Hongsermeier <span><<a href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">rwhongser@web.de</a>></span> wrote:<br/><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex"><br/>Coal, or any other combustible material has a particular energy content. You can't do anything to get 4 times as much energy value out of it. S</blockquote><div><br/>Hi Ron,<br/><br/>Well you CAN if you burn what you have more efficiently, so that the heat doesn't piddle away up your chimney. I think that's what our anonymous friend may mean.<br/><br/>Steve</div></div><br/>_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/</div></div></div></blockquote><br/>_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/</div></div></div></blockquote></body></html>