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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dear Dr. Larson, Crispin, my good friend Bakari et
al</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Sometimes I really am baffled readings some of these
posts. I see extremely clever and learned people actually spending their time
discussing issues which, with all due respect, seem to be way out of their area
of - if not expertise per se - then sure practical experience. Why? Just
to prove a point?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I am really glad I joined this list about 4 years ago - I
have met some great and passionate people, I have learned alot - one thingh I
have NOT learned is to keep my gob shut sometimes - but eh, that's just me. I am
just a simple guy here on the ground who is trying to use my brain, energy,
learning and organising capacity to do my bit to makke this messed up globe of
ours a better place for everybody. Being a dreamer but also practical guy I try
to do that right here - in The Gambia. Being a white guy in an African
country is not always easy but we all try to respect each other and get
along - and learn from each other. As I said before the one thing I probably
never will learn - not that i even WANT to - is keep my gob shut. I also am
known for being direct - it saves time even if some people think it's not always
the polite thing to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I've been watching this interesting thread for the last 2
days ever since Cecil talked to Crispin and left after his all to short visit.
We all had a very busy and fruitful time and all our brains are totally
overloaded - now it's time for sorting and trying to use what we have learned.
We still have another 2 or 3 weeks of baseline research to do but we're getting
there. Just a few comments below.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=crispinpigott@gmail.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@gmail.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=paul.olivier@esrla.com
href="mailto:paul.olivier@esrla.com">Paul Olivier</A> ; <A
title=biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com">biochar-policy</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> ; <A title=dgrowald@gmail.com
href="mailto:dgrowald@gmail.com">Danny Growald</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 12, 2011 4:08
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Charcoal in
Gambia</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Crispin
etal<BR><BR> I can't let you off the hook so easily. My main
points in my last message on charcoaling in Gambia were two fold - and you
missed commenting on either one. If charcoal making is so great for the
economy - why is production illegal?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Because I guess most governments actually have figured all by
themselves (with the help of some highly paid external consultants I'm sure
telling us what we here know anyway) that making charcoal is killing our
forests. But saying it's illegal without offering an affordable alternative
NOW for ALL who use it doesn't stop it. People got to cook - it's as easy as
that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Second
the cost we should be talking about should involve externalities - not just
its availability because people have no other employment. This is to
request your thoughts on these several rejoinders.<BR><BR>I asked <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Does
anyone know of any African country where char production is considered a plus
for the economy? </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN></DIV>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></SPAN></P>
<P style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">and you replied: "<SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">All over the place. Given the destruction of the
domestic food industry by Western countries dumping food below cost, it is one
of the only things you can do in a rural are that earns enough money to buy
matches, school books, candles and tea.</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>I still
maintain that Gambia is probably being ruined from people breaking the
law.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Well show me the country where that is different and I'm packing
my bags tomorrow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And Biochar
production in pyrolysis stoves by these same unemployed folk can be
accomplished by people like me paying for taking atmospheric carbon out of
their (and my atmosphere. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Maybe you just found a solution to the global unemployment
problem (including the growing one in the USA) I think the last time i looked
the little that the US government spends from your hard earned tax bucks
possibly don't even co</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>ver your own per
capita emmissions in the USA - never mind ours. But could be
wrong.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>One strange reoccuring perception on this list seems to be that
the folks here in The Gambia - and most likely other similar countries - have
just been waiting for someone to come to tell them that "what? you use your
stove for cooking? - don't you realise that you can do all sorts of great
stuff with it?" I know what they tell ME when I actually TALK to
them and suggest that they should use a different method then they have all
their lives... It's hard to change habits and sometimes people here just can't
afford the risk to do something that's new just in case they end up even worth
off then they are already</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> Partly
this can be done locally, but also these same unemployed can plant and manage
trees. They can also prepare wood of the proper type for shipment to
cities for use in pyrokyzing stoves (and thosecity people save in the
process). The same tree used as wood can probably cook for 4 to 5 times
as many people (I have seen the number 7). And the properly managed tree
(and its roots) will not be savaged - but rather coppiced.<BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Well yes I can say that sitting here to - let's start with
Texas. I heard they seem to have alot of spare land available now and
because they too have been mismanaging their resources they just have
discovered that water actually can be recycled. Not really sure where you got
these figures from but i'd be interested to get hold of one of these stoves
that increases efficiency of ANY fuel by 700 %!</FONT></DIV><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>There is
a good reason for most laws and I hate to see the subject of illegal charcoal
making going undiscussed.<BR><FONT color=#0000ff>I thought this is a stove
discussen forum?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Thanks
for the report below that Bakari has used the phrase "very big
improvement" from Biochar I hope he can give us more detail. I
don't know whether that is 20% (very big in this country) or 200%.(which I am
hearing a lot in Africa). The difference can start with the rural
stove.<BR><FONT color=#0000ff>As I said before Bakari is a dear friend of mine
and we're both to busy to meet up all that often. He's one of these great guys
who can fiddle around with something and can make it work - ask him afterwards
how he did it and he looks like I used to when I took my dad's watches apart
and put them together again but had some screws left. His activities are on a
very local and practical level and i don't think he keeps records of his
experimenting. But I will ask him and forward the stuff to Cecil.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
color=#0000ff>Once we did our baseline summary I am sure i will park it on the
stoves site so everyone can see what we found out.</FONT></DIV><FONT
color=#0000ff></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Cheers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>George from the (ever depleting)
jungle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Ron<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR id=zwchr>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B>From:
</B>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@gmail.com><BR><B>To:
</B>rongretlarson@comcast.net, "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Cc: </B>"Paul Olivier"
<paul.olivier@esrla.com>, "Danny Growald" <dgrowald@gmail.com>,
"biochar-policy" <biochar-policy@yahoogroups.com><BR><B>Sent:
</B>Thursday, August 11, 2011 12:27:23 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: [Stoves]
Charcoal in Gambia<BR><BR></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Dear All</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> Can you
ask Cecil to get a few more price numbers </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">He left today. He has numbers
from a variety of things but concentrating on domestic stoves and
fuels.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> The
Gambian prices of about 15 to 20 c/kg ($150-$200/ tonne) are certainly
pretty low. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Yes, indicating that it is not
in that short a supply.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Does anyone know of
any African country where char production is considered a plus for the
economy? </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">All over the place. Given the
destruction of the domestic food industry by Western countries dumping food
below cost, it is one of the only things you can do in a rural are that earns
enough money to buy matches, school books, candles and tea. That sort of basic
necessity. In Mozambique there used to be a huge ($188m/yr) cashew nut trading
system in place. Mostly gone now but partly restored. Income is difficult to
generate when the main thing available is land for food production.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> If the
peanut log is 6 Dalasi, your comment below doesn't make sense to me in
terms of balancing from the perspective of the user. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">That is the current commercial
price were to sell it. I don’t think anyone will take the product at that
price. It is a new business. Too much overhead in equipment if you ask
me.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> I'll bet
the user of a charcoal-making stove can get the cost of cooking a meal down to
zero by selling the produced char (of course for putting in the
ground)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">‘Bakari’ (who is German) reads
the stoves list. He says he has very big improvements using biochar in sandy
soils in Gambia. Cecil interviewed him in his garden.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Regards</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Crispin</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
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